Newsnewsvolkswagenfudgeemissiontestswithsoftware

Fri Sep 18, 2015, 10:28 PM

Volkswagen said to use software to fudge emissions tests

Volkswagen is being investigated by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the California Air Resources Board for allegedly using software to game emission test results.

The so-called "defeat device" to evade clean air standards is allegedly a software algorithm on certain Volkswagen vehicles, which detects if a car is undergoing official emissions testing, and turns on full emissions controls only during the test, according to an EPA statement Friday. A number of car makers including Volkswagen are increasing the software and automation in their vehicles, with some aiming at cars that could be driverless.

EPA and CARB said they uncovered the software after independent analysis by researchers at West Virginia University, working with the International Council on Clean Transportation, a non-governmental organization.

The agencies decided on further research after results raised questions about emissions levels. Volkswagen is said to have admitted to the use of the defeat devices when confronted with the emission issues.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2984841/volkswagen-said-to-use-software-to-fudge-emissions-tests.html

And...

The EPA claims that illegal emissions control software was used on Volkswagen and Audi diesel vehicles sold in the United States between the model years 2009 and 2015.

Allegedly, the cars run in a clean mode when hooked up to testing equipment and switch back to a not-so-clean mode when disconnected. This causes the torquey TDIs to actually spew up to 40 times more tailpipe emissions when driven in the real world.

The affected vehicles are 2009-2015 model year Volkswagen Jetta, Beetle and Golf, the 2014-2015 VW Passat, and 2009-2015 Audi A3, totaling roughly 482,000 diesel passenger cars.

http://news.yahoo.com/volkswagen-audi-accused-using-software-225706593.html

79 replies, 3629 views

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Reply Volkswagen said to use software to fudge emissions tests (Original post)
Gamle-ged Sep 2015 OP
RATFINK_5.0 Sep 2015 #1
Scary Red Sep 2015 #2
Gamle-ged Sep 2015 #3
fncceo Sep 2015 #4
Badsamm Sep 2015 #6
_eek Sep 2015 #18
Badsamm Sep 2015 #5
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #10
Badsamm Sep 2015 #56
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #57
Badsamm Sep 2015 #58
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #59
Badsamm Sep 2015 #60
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #62
Badsamm Sep 2015 #63
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #65
Badsamm Sep 2015 #67
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #69
Badsamm Sep 2015 #70
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #71
Badsamm Sep 2015 #72
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #73
Badsamm Sep 2015 #74
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #75
Badsamm Sep 2015 #76
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #77
Miss Quay Sep 2015 #78
Zappa Dappa Doo Sep 2015 #79
Gamle-ged Sep 2015 #7
Gamle-ged Sep 2015 #8
Qukid Sep 2015 #9
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #11
Currentsitguy Sep 2015 #12
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #14
Currentsitguy Sep 2015 #15
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #19
Currentsitguy Sep 2015 #24
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #26
Currentsitguy Sep 2015 #31
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #35
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #13
pavulon-lives Sep 2015 #16
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #20
pavulon-lives Sep 2015 #23
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #32
pavulon-lives Sep 2015 #39
_eek Sep 2015 #17
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #21
_eek Sep 2015 #22
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #29
pavulon-lives Sep 2015 #33
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #36
pavulon-lives Sep 2015 #42
_eek Sep 2015 #38
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #43
pavulon-lives Sep 2015 #44
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #48
pavulon-lives Sep 2015 #50
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #53
_eek Sep 2015 #45
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #46
_eek Sep 2015 #47
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #49
_eek Sep 2015 #51
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #52
_eek Sep 2015 #54
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #55
_eek Sep 2015 #61
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #64
_eek Sep 2015 #66
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #68
pavulon-lives Sep 2015 #25
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #27
pavulon-lives Sep 2015 #30
misanthroptimist Sep 2015 #34
pavulon-lives Sep 2015 #28
Qukid Sep 2015 #37
pavulon-lives Sep 2015 #40
_eek Sep 2015 #41

Response to Gamle-ged (Original post)

Fri Sep 18, 2015, 10:54 PM

1. D#mn you VW !!

I LUV the Golf & Passat !

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Response to Gamle-ged (Original post)

Fri Sep 18, 2015, 11:19 PM

2. Been hearing this on the nooz all day...

and I just don't get how they thought they could get away with it.

Besides, the biggest problem seems to be NOx emissions, and the European standard is almost identical to ours-- so how stupid are the guys at VW?

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Response to Scary Red (Reply #2)

Fri Sep 18, 2015, 11:46 PM

3. They started in 2009, I guess after the first few years they figured they were golden...

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Response to Gamle-ged (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2015, 02:50 AM

4. Just can't bring myself to buy a German car ...

... don't know what it is.

.

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Response to fncceo (Reply #4)

Sat Sep 19, 2015, 04:19 AM

6. You worked for GM and can't afford a German?

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Response to fncceo (Reply #4)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 09:40 AM

18. My '71 2002 assuaged my guilt.

Being the perfect canvas for my Baader Meinhoff sticker won me over

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Response to Gamle-ged (Original post)

Sat Sep 19, 2015, 04:16 AM

5. Our gov does the same with unemployment numbers.

Same same but different

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Response to Badsamm (Reply #5)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 07:25 AM

10. Evidence?

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #10)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 12:20 PM

56. Let's see, can the labor participation rate be 1970's low

And at the same time only have 5.7% unemployed?

If you still need a link here you go












Google.com

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Response to Badsamm (Reply #56)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 12:26 PM

57. Yes, of course U-3 can be 5.7%...

...no matter what the LFPR is. The U-3 is a percentage of the Labor Force. The Labor Force Participation Rate is the number of people in the Labor Force divided by the Civilian Non-Institutional Population. So, no matter what the LFPR rate is there can be 5.7% of it. lol

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #57)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 12:29 PM

58. Keep telling yourself that.

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Response to Badsamm (Reply #58)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 12:33 PM

59. I don't have to. It's mathematical fact.

Feel free to demonstrate my mistake.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #59)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 12:35 PM

60. I'm sure VW was using math too

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Response to Badsamm (Reply #60)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 12:39 PM

62. Okay

Why don't you tell me which numbers that there can be no 5.7% of? LOL

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #62)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 12:45 PM

63. Now in English please

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Response to Badsamm (Reply #63)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 12:55 PM

65. Okay. Let's do it this way.

Let C=Civilian Non-institutional Population
Let L= Labor Force
Let R= Labor Force Participation Rate
Let U= Unemployed
Let V= Unemployment Rate

R = L/C

V = U/L

Those two things are completely separate. No matter what value of R you pick there can be a V of 5.7%.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #65)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 01:03 PM

67. I'm sure VW had a cute formula too

Do not put your faith in what statistics say until you have carefully considered what they do not say. ~William W. Watt

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Response to Badsamm (Reply #67)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 01:07 PM

69. Do you seriously not get what I demonstrated?

Seriously, I can't make it any simpler than that. Quoting doesn't rebut my statement at all. You'll need math and numbers for that.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #69)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 01:14 PM

70. our unemployment number in the U.S. Is not 5.6% or what ever the FED said last week.

Our government manipulates numbers to sell a story to the American public, just like VW did. Which was my point. Don't care about your formulas and they don't matter

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Response to Badsamm (Reply #70)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 01:20 PM

71. Okay, your evidence for your claim is...

...your claim?

The formula I posted demonstrates that your claim is wrong, but can't be accepted as evidence even though it is correct...because your claim!

I don't think you have this discussion thing down quite right. Just sayin'.

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Response to Badsamm (Reply #72)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 01:59 PM

73. Your link doesn't work

Last edited Tue Sep 22, 2015, 02:39 PM - Edit history (1)

Is this the article you linked?

I'd hate to review the wrong article. But I'll do it anyway.

That article is of little value. The author redefines unemployment as income level, as if that makes any sense. So, his argument becomes if we use income level as unemployment then the unemployment rate is different. Well, duh. But that doesn't amount to the government lying. That's just a metric.

One reason it's ridiculous is that if we take the author's example of someone earning $1000/year and divide it by 12 to figure out how much they make monthly we arrive at $83.33/month. Let's assume that such a person made $8.33/hr. That's ten hours per month of work. How many jobs exist that have a 2.5 hour work week? Damn few to none is the answer I come up with. So, the chances are that a person making $1000/annum is working a couple of months and unemployed the rest of the time, meaning they would be counted as unemployed for a large majority of the year. So by counting such people as unemployed and adding it to the existing unemployment number (where they are already counted for most of the year), the author double counts a large amount of people.

Unemployment figures about how many are working in a given month, not how much they make in a year or even a month. The government has such figures. Indeed the author cites such figures in his estimation, so the government isn't exactly hiding such data.

Is unemployment too high? Yes.
Underemployment? Hell, yes!

But there is no reason to believe that the government is lying about the employment situation. Hell, I could make a better case than that author did. (SEE: CES net birth/death model)

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #73)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 08:27 PM

74. "there is no reason to believe the government is lying"

That is a beauty.


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Response to Badsamm (Reply #74)

Wed Sep 23, 2015, 03:23 AM

75. Okay, just to cut to the chase

You don't discuss, you proclaim, right? And evidence won't move you, right? I ask not to make fun of you, but to save myself some time. If you won't discuss and don't accept/can't evaluate evidence, then you and I have no reason to converse. I'll just let you live in your little dream world, unmolested by facts and reason.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #75)

Wed Sep 23, 2015, 04:30 AM

76. How long you been here MsMbot?

You need to fine tune your algos

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Response to Badsamm (Reply #76)

Wed Sep 23, 2015, 06:14 AM

77. Oh, come now!

You'll never pass the Turing test like that!

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #77)

Wed Sep 23, 2015, 10:42 AM

78. Bravo! A sound thrashing!

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Response to Miss Quay (Reply #78)

Wed Sep 23, 2015, 02:59 PM

79. That it was.

It's nice to see a new member....unfortunately, once he/she discovers the severe lack of "talent" here from those on the right, they'll probably go elsewhere. Too much interaction with them results in this...

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Response to Gamle-ged (Original post)

Mon Sep 21, 2015, 10:46 PM

7. It may get very expensive... "could amount to penalties of up to $18 billion"...

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency alleged Sept. 18 that German vehicle makers Volkswagen and Audi sold 482,000 diesel vehicles in the U.S. that carried a so-called "defeat device" -- illegal emissions control software designed to make cars appear to run cleaner in testing situations than they do normally.

On Sept. 21, the plot thickened when The New York Times reported that Volkswagen officials told the EPA for nearly a year that discrepancies between the formal air-quality tests on its diesel cars and the much higher pollution levels out on the road were the result of technical errors, not a deliberate attempt to deceive Washington officials.

Under pressure, Volkswagen backtracked earlier this month, admitting that defeat device software was included on VW and Audi vehicles from the 2009-2015 model years with 2.0-liter turbodiesel engines. Specifically, the emissions-cheating software was found in four-cylinder diesel passenger cars that include the Passat, Beetle, Jetta, Golf and Audi A3.

Potentially, the EPA action could amount to penalties of up to $18 billion (£11.6 billion) for Volkswagen.

http://mobile.eweek.com/it-management/vw-admits-using-cheating-software-in-emissions-systems.html

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Response to Gamle-ged (Original post)

Mon Sep 21, 2015, 11:15 PM

8. And now Europe is looking into it... "Will other car groups admit to similar cheating?” ...

The EPS and California Air Resources Board have now begun procuring other manufacturers’ vehicles to test for similar devices, while Berlin plans to examine whether emissions data have been manipulated.

The news prompted a fall in carmakers’ shares with Daimler, BMW, Renault and PSA Peugeot Citroën each being sold off amid investor concerns over the potential scale of the cost to the broader industry. VW faces billions of dollars in fines and warranty costs, possible criminal charges for executives and class­action lawsuits from US drivers.

Stuart Pearson, analyst at Exane BNP Paribas, said VW was unlikely to have been the only company to game the system globally. “The artificial gaming of emissions tests threatens to become the car industry’s Libor moment.”
The European Commission said it was taking the matter “very seriously” and was in contact with both Volkswagen and the EPA. One top 10 shareholder in VW said it could be very costly to VW’s reputation.

“There is scope for a whole array of lawsuits in a variety of jurisdictions. The other question to ask is: is this an industry­wide problem? Will other car groups admit to similar cheating?”

http://businessdayonline.com/2015/09/volkswagen-emission-test-cheating-rocks-europes-car-manufacturers/

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Response to Gamle-ged (Original post)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 07:19 AM

9. I hear they're trying to get Tom Brady for their spokesperson.

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Response to Gamle-ged (Original post)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 07:37 AM

11. That's private industry for you:

Cheat the public wherever and whenever you can.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #11)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 08:54 AM

12. i know

The Government hates the competition working their side of the street.

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Response to Currentsitguy (Reply #12)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 08:58 AM

14. You mustn't mistake the politicians for the government

That's a common error, I know, but it is still an error.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #14)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 09:13 AM

15. I am not

Any bureaucracy as large and complex as the Federal Government, by definition, is riddled with inefficiency, corruption, and indifference. The nature of the job attracts people who thrive on having power over those they are charged to "assist". Politicians come and go. It's the unelected career bureaucrats who are the greatest threat to our freedoms and well being.

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Response to Currentsitguy (Reply #15)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 09:41 AM

19. Politicians can cut the bureaucracy with a simple vote.

But let me point out that inefficiency, corruption, and indifference are at least as common in so-called private industry as in government. And in the case of private industry, there is little to no real recourse for people.

Much like the police, bureaucracy is a necessary evil. We either do our homework and keep an eye on those evil necessities or we suffer the consequences. We appear to be doing the latter right now.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #19)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 09:50 AM

24. I can't really disagree

As citizens we are the ultimate watchdog of Government in much the same way we are with private industry as consumers.

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Response to Currentsitguy (Reply #24)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 09:55 AM

26. You sound as surprised as I am that we ended up mostly agreeing.

Every once in a while there are pleasant surprises, I guess.

Beats hell outta steppin' in a gopher hole, don't it?

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #26)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:02 AM

31. Not exactly

I'm not a blind ideologue. My problem comes from when all too often we, as citizens, are powerless to government running roughshod over individuals. The "you can't fight city hall" conundrum. Case in point:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/us/regulatory-war-fought-over-a-wyoming-familys-pond.html

In a January 2014 violation notice, the agency said Mr. Johnson had violated the Clean Water Act by digging out Six Mile Creek and dumping in tons of river rocks without getting necessary federal permits. The agency ordered him to take steps to restore the creek under the supervision of environmental officials, or face accumulating fines of as much as $37,500 a day.

Mr. Johnson refused.

He argued that he had gotten full approvals from Wyoming officials, and said the federal government had no business using national water laws to make decisions about the creek that meanders through the family’s eight-acre property. Mr. Johnson and his wife, Katie, had spent $50,000 — most of their savings, they said — to create the pond to water their 10 head of cattle and four horses. Dismantling it now would be ruinously expensive and destroy what has become a tiny oasis for birds and wildlife, they said.

After more than a year of unsuccessful negotiations, the standoff veered into a federal courthouse last month when Mr. Johnson sued the E.P.A., asking a judge to declare his pond legal and wave away accumulating fines of as much as $16 million.

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Response to Currentsitguy (Reply #31)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:07 AM

35. No, seriously, we agree

I remember that case. As a land owner, I can tell you that it's doubtful that you were/are more outraged by that bureaucratic bullshit as I am.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #11)


Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #11)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 09:17 AM

16. no they cheated on a shitty reg

I couldn't possibly give a single shit about the emission test some california poon thought up to make sure my vehicle couldn't get 45 mpg and make good power.

good news is that the existing code is out there now, so you can load clean code when you do emissions test and then reload the correct "dirty" code the other 364 days a year.

these regs are brought by the same assholes that want to ban charcoal grills and wood burning fire places.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #16)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 09:42 AM

20. Right

Giving the public emphysema or lung cancer so you can make a bit o' profit is in no way cheating the public. lol

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #20)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 09:49 AM

23. 40X what? what is emitted by a gas grill, a diesel truck

what is the baseline. the california standard has basically made diesel a premium in the US. Lung cancer from NO2 fo real? care to source that?

its all democrat CARB driven bullshit.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #23)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:03 AM

32. A gas grill? A diesel truck?

Not a helluva lot in either case. However, when we you multiply that by tens of thousands you come up with real numbers.

But using your logic, how much poison do I have a right to pump into your lungs?

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #32)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:15 AM

39. Firewood yo? We need a CARB board firewood ban

NO2 be killin the babies.


its market protection. But hey, I hope to pick up a passat TDI on the cheap.

https://www.ec.gc.ca/indicateurs-indicators/default.asp?lang=en&n=0870FFFC-1

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #11)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 09:34 AM

17. They aren't cheating the public..

The EPA and Gov are, idiotic US regulations on diesels are keeping, good, clean diesels away from the US market, try and buy a diesel Ranger, or a HiLux.. You can't because of an archaic and PROTECTIONIST diesel particulate regulation.

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Response to _eek (Reply #17)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 09:43 AM

21. See post #20 above.

It applies to your response as well.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #21)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 09:48 AM

22. Because we are so much more green than Europe?

Are you serious?

Tell me how Germany, France and the Scandinavian are countries dropping dead from all the breathing problems...

TDI is a threat to vested US interests and so must be ridiculously regulated.

This is not a 1980 Mercedes 300D.. Do a little research, And then get back to me on this.


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Response to _eek (Reply #22)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:01 AM

29. It's not a "greener than" problem.

It's a question of what we decided is acceptable. If a manufacturer can't meet that standard then they can go sell elsewhere. It appears that other manufacturers can meet the standard, so your beef should be with the VW engineers not the government.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #29)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:04 AM

33. no california decides

and the rest of the market complies. don't worry, its the reason things will continue to cost more. wait until they push regs on heavy trucks.

It has nothing to do with any real harm to the environment or a person, its just market protection.

thankfully the computer in the vehicle can be modified to flush out the bad "cali" code and load a proper profile.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #33)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:10 AM

36. Things don't cost more due to such regulations.

The cost that would have been absorbed by people who were victims of the pollution are shifted to the actual polluters, who of course pass the cost along to the consumer of the polluting products. Quit using my lungs to save yourself a few bucks. It's rude. lol

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #36)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:21 AM

42. Better ban camp fires and cement

both are responsible for much more NOx than TDI motors. seriously, educate yourself. there are no victims of "pollution" in this case. its just market protection.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #29)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:13 AM

38. No, I have a beef with the governments continous arbitrary rules

From EPA to BATF unelected little lords protecting their fiefdoms at the expense of freedom and choice.

I am not one to bow down and worship the great god State

"It's a question of what we decided " Where have WE decided, as opposed to some bureaucrat making his mind up what I need or deserve to have?

Good on VW for gaming the system and too bad they will have to pay, forcing up the price of one of the few sane alternative transportation sources out there.

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Response to _eek (Reply #38)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:25 AM

43. We have decided by not making our Representatives address the problem.

Assuming, of course, that there really is a problem. Just because you lose a vote in the legislature doesn't mean that there is a problem. However, bureaucrats that overstep their bounds should be held to account. They frequently are when these stories become public. It's self-government. It's going to be a bumpy ride. There will always be people that disagree vehemently.

I'm sorry that you can't pollute in the way that you'd like. I hope you're not losing much sleep over it.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #43)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:29 AM

44. Free market, aka ANTI-CARB

for the v dub. scrub out the democrat, load up the liberty. enjoy. I may even have a wood burning fire place. the horror. I bet my neighbors kid will die or have a 3 headed pecker.

https://www.goapr.com/products/ecu_upgrade_20tdi.html

or for a real diesel, F250. who doesn't want 700hp and 900ft/lb or torque?

Not losing any sleep. chip it baby.

EDIT. NOx caused this...


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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #44)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:49 AM

48. No, it did this:



Thanks loads for the fire-hazard, loss of wildlife habitat, and all the other happy effects. Of course, gods forbid that someone suggest that you or the manufacturer should pay for that privilege. After all, costs should be socialized not profits. lol

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #48)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 11:25 AM

50. Look up the stack ranked sources of NOX

get back to me minus the feelz.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #50)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 11:52 AM

53. The feelz? Youse da one in love where their car! lol

I showed objective damage that exists no matter how I (or anyone else feels about it). That damage exists on public lands (Great Smoky Mountains National Park). Why should anyone be allowed to damage public lands without paying for it? Pay for the privilege of polluting, dude, and quit whining. Quit trying to get something for free.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #43)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:35 AM

45. Read up a ways, I have a 1971 BMW 2002,

With a turbocharged m10/m31 swap...I pollute exactly as much as I need

No emissions test in my county, and yet, no one in my house is dying.

I laugh at your false narrative and you for thinking your little jibes mean anything to average Americans... I see a bump in older Jetta sales, reasonable people can see woo when it's thrown at them.


Oh, enjoy my "smog"..

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Response to _eek (Reply #45)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:44 AM

46. Gee, even my car is newer than that.

You still haven't told me how much poison I can put into your lungs before it becomes objectionable. That's really at the heart of this thing.

Hey, tell all the average Americans I said, "Hi", will ya? I mean, since you appear to know them all.

I'm pleased to hear that your family is healthy. That's always nice.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #46)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:49 AM

47. I was never asked how much poison.

So of course I never answered your bumper sticker gotcha question.. Perhaps all the carcinogens and particulates have addled your senses. Obviously the Koolaid hasn't helped either.


And you put more "poison" everyday in your body than my "old car" creates in a month, sorry you can't afford a classic, or have the knowledge to fix your own.




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Response to _eek (Reply #47)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:58 AM

49. It's not a gotcha. It's a fundamental question

How much can we poison other people for free? How much raw sewage can I dump in mountain stream? How much cyanide can I put out by burning...cyanide-producing stuff (lol)? Why can I give someone emphysema slowly over many years when I would go to jail if I punched him in the chops? It simply doesn't make sense to act as if there is no effect from pollution.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #49)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 11:34 AM

51. I know quite a bit about REAL smog

I grew up in a El Paso, I have seen pollution, as the Mexican city next door with over a million people doesn't have EPA regs,





I have spent quite a bit of time in Mexico City



Bullshit EPA regs that limit TDI to keep newer cleaner diesel out of the US... Pure protectionist, arbitrary bullshit. And you have bought into it.

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Response to _eek (Reply #51)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 11:48 AM

52. Your only evidence appears to be naked assertion.

I don't accept anecdotal evidence.

I've still got no answer to the "how much poison" question.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #52)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 12:12 PM

54. I feel no need to answer it. And you don't get to decide, sorry bubbi.

It would only be naked assertion after all.

The current level is acceptable to me (in fact i am comfortable with even a bit more particulate in return for cheaper fuel...And that includes all the poison produced by TDIs the world over to date.

I love you supporting more expensive cars and fuel costs, screw them that can't afford it. You have a newer car after all, you got yours, fuck everyone else. Liberalism in a nutshell.



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Response to _eek (Reply #54)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 12:19 PM

55. Hey, I wouldn't have a car at all if there was decent public transportation here

There isn't. Can't walk three miles to the grocery store in this heat. My ice cream will melt. Then I'll get all cranky.

I support neither expensive nor cheap cars, in truth. What I support is thing costing what they really cost rather than trashing the Commons for the benefit of low prices. You appear to be all in favor of socializing such costs for your own benefit.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #55)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 12:38 PM

61. And you think passenger cars produce too much NOx and particulates?

Your described lifestyle is fed by heavy trucking, rail and electric power consumption..

You really might want to examine who is killing trees, and babies. last spring I planted 20 trees on the back side of my land, I have a 70-80 percent sustainable home, and use predominately local source food (including my own garden) and materials.

3 miles? less than 15 minutes on my bike.

And Public trans? I am sure you want to pay the real cost of a bus ride not the tax subsidizes agreed rate.. right?

I have no problem with shared costs of infrastructure and helping those less financially suited to America's car culture. You are barking up the wrong tree there. I advocate for TDI and developing hybrids and reduced consumption vehicles, ride my bike quite often to do my town errands and even to get to work in the "riding season, for health, financial and to do a small part to not pollute.

And my beloved classic car is a weekend fuck around thing I go to local events and occasional joy rides, my daily driver is either my Trek, or my 6 cyl F 150.

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Response to _eek (Reply #61)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 12:48 PM

64. I can't ride a bike.

Arthritic knee, donchaknow.

Yes, I know a certain amount of pollution is unavoidable. I know that capitalism can't handle externalities well (or at all in many cases), but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. And since we can't always quantify externalities -What is the monetary value of dead, non-lumber, trees in a National Forest, after all?- we can only make estimates or sheer guesses. Sometimes we might make arbitrary rules or impose arbitrary costs, but ya gotta start somewhere. These are difficult problems to solve and someone's toes are almost always going to get stepped on.

Negative externalities irritate the hell outta me. In essence, we give things away for free to purchasers (in the name of low prices) and take things away from everyone else.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #64)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 12:56 PM

66. My sisters husband is actually doing better with his arthritis

After getting himself a recumbent.

Exercise and weight loss from being more active has helped him quite a bit..

The infantry put alot of extra, HARD miles on my knees and back, but a bike is great low impact exercise, has actually helped with my knees as well.

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Response to _eek (Reply #66)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 01:04 PM

68. Exercise is important.

I don't really need to lose any weight. I'm within four pounds of "ideal". I do walk and a light workout daily, though. I started getting fat...couldn't stand it.

Infantry is some hard soldierin'. Basic was enough to convince me I didn't want to be 11-bravo.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #21)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 09:52 AM

25. #GOTO posts suck the most

BASIC is dead, take the minute to post a valid response. its the right thing to do.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #25)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 09:57 AM

27. Oh, cut the drama...

...and have some pity on my poor ol' arthritic hands. If the answer to two different posts is identical, there is no reason to type it twice, or even c-p'ing it. If you don't want to scroll the page, don't. Both of our days will work out to around 24 hours anyway.

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Response to misanthroptimist (Reply #27)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:01 AM

30. linky

it just makes it easier to read and follow. link you original post.

you never did answer the poster on why european and canadian laws are less restrictive on diesel. Its like someone put a market protection in place...

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #30)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:04 AM

34. Their laws are less restrictive because that's what they're willing to put up with.

...or up with what they'll put if you're Winston Churchill.

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Response to Gamle-ged (Original post)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 09:59 AM

28. Sounds like a great time to get a deal on TDI

remember folks, when you take it to the dealer and they load their shitty "fixed" code, just take it to the tuner and have them load the optimized profile.

45 - 50 mpg, lots of power and torque. well over 500 miles on a tank.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #28)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:12 AM

37. Fuck VW

They're stealing jobs from honest car makers.

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Response to Qukid (Reply #37)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:16 AM

40. "honest car makers"

I'd buy a toyota diesel but they don't sell one here. Interestingly most of the makers sell diesel globally, just not here because of CARB douches.

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Response to Qukid (Reply #37)

Tue Sep 22, 2015, 10:17 AM

41. And hiring American workers..

Just like Mercedes, BMW, Hyundai, Toyota, Nissan, Kia, Honda.....

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