Newsukrainemh17falseflag

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 01:56 AM

 

OSCE monitor tells CBC Canada that MH-17 cockpit has holes made by heavy machine gun fire

More information is coming to light that doesn't match the early massive media push by the Kiev junta and the US media and government. The cockpit fuselage of MH-17 shows a clear pattern of spherical holes consistent with those made by a high caliber machine gun.....not a missile. OSCE monitor statement on verification of heavy machine gun fire and no sign of a missile strike at 6:11 mark in the video. This report has been aired in Malyasia, Australia and Canada. It has not been shown in the United States.

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Previous US media reports which denigrated the east Ukrainian rebels have been found to be false as proven by the fact the lead Dutch investigator actually gave the rebels high praise for their work taking care of the bodies of victims and securing the crash site.

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/dutch-expert-ukraine-body-recovery-team-for-mh17-crash-did-a-hell-of-a-job

The Kiev regime as well as John McCain and John Kerry have also been caught in an outright lie by stating that the Kiev regime did not possess any BuK missile systems and did not have them in the war zone. That falsity has now been completely debunked at this point as the AP photographed the Ukrainian military with BuK's near Slavyansk (not far from where the plane went down) and used them in a story on July 4th. Link here: http://www.cp24.com/world/ukrainian-forces-win-more-ground-in-eastern-ukraine-1.1899368

The logical question one should ask is "if the rebels had no planes, why did the Kiev junta need BuK's and why did they lie about them?

From the moment the US and Kiev came out with the massive media barrage aimed against Russia and the rebels before that plane had even barely hit the ground it was obvious something was amiss. It all seemed too planned and contrived. Now we are seeing evidence that doesn't match the official US pushed narrative. No wonder the US government won't release the official government radar and satellite data they have. They know it incriminates themselves and brings the entire Ukraine coup fiasco to a halt. This is what happens when you jump into bed with nazis. Things go bad.

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Reply OSCE monitor tells CBC Canada that MH-17 cockpit has holes made by heavy machine gun fire (Original post)
Clarity of Signal Aug 2014 OP
akaConcernedCanuk Aug 2014 #1
LexTalionis Aug 2014 #2
akaConcernedCanuk Aug 2014 #9
sabrina Sep 2014 #123
WhoProfits Aug 2014 #3
Clarity of Signal Aug 2014 #5
Clarity of Signal Aug 2014 #6
WhoProfits Aug 2014 #7
Clarity of Signal Aug 2014 #8
bpilgrim Aug 2014 #57
Clarity of Signal Aug 2014 #60
DrJohn Aug 2014 #117
Clarity of Signal Sep 2014 #121
WhoProfits Aug 2014 #4
Clarity of Signal Aug 2014 #10
pavulon-lives Aug 2014 #14
WhoProfits Aug 2014 #16
joefriday6 Aug 2014 #11
Clarity of Signal Aug 2014 #12
pavulon-lives Aug 2014 #13
Clarity of Signal Aug 2014 #17
pavulon-lives Aug 2014 #20
Clarity of Signal Aug 2014 #24
WhoProfits Aug 2014 #18
MisterMan Aug 2014 #15
Clarity of Signal Aug 2014 #19
pavulon-lives Aug 2014 #22
Clarity of Signal Aug 2014 #25
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Clarity of Signal Aug 2014 #42
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pavulon-lives Sep 2014 #122

Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 07:44 AM

1. - I've been curious about the pictures of the wreckage, confused somewhat . . .

.
An airplane, hit by a missile at 33,000 feet, loaded with tons of fuel - so many unscorched pieces managed to land on the ground almost 6 miles below.

I have my doubts as to the truth of reports coming from the US and Ukraine - Russia is the "bad guy" right?

I mean, Russia managed to annex the Crimea without a shot fired - Ukraine is slaughtering their own citizens trying to hold on the the Eastern part of Ukraine which is attempting to achieve independence.

Ukraine's and the USA's attempt to hold on to East Ukraine couldn't have anything to do with the fact that eastern Ukraine happens to have rich gas/oil reserves, now could it?

naaaaaaaaawwwwwwwww . . .

CC

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Response to akaConcernedCanuk (Reply #1)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 07:57 AM

2. Obama's enforcers will be around to see you soon.

You need to be encouraged not to think like that.

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Response to LexTalionis (Reply #2)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 10:16 AM

9. - LOL - when I die, I die - so be it.

.
I'm not a believer in heaven or hell. I think I'll just be like the fly I swatted, or the ant I stepped on . .

gone . . . .



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Response to akaConcernedCanuk (Reply #1)

Thu Sep 4, 2014, 10:55 AM

123. Good post, thank you! You're not the only one not buying the narrative that appeared

so quickly as soon as news of the tragedy was reported. I wondered how, eg, 'the Rebels won't let anyone near the plane, the black boxes have been spirited away to Russia' matched the incredible 'facts' we were being fed, which would have required access to the site in the first place.

I have read reports from media all over the world.

The first lie to be debunked was that the black boxes were 'spirited into Russia'. The truth is that they were handed over to investigators.

Once a few lies begin to fall apart, everything becomes dubious.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 08:05 AM

3. The origin of the snipers that incited the original coup are as sketchy as ever. It is now likely

that the same snipers fired on both the protesters AND the police. Meaning they were not supporting either side, but were there instead just to instigate an upheaval, which they did. So it would appear they came from the outside.

The whole thing smells hinky to me.

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Response to WhoProfits (Reply #3)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 09:14 AM

5. The Maidan snipers who shot at the BBC camera crew were covered here.

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024616147

In the following BBC video we see BBC reporter Gabriel Gatehouse and his BBC news crew being shot at and running for cover at the 3:45 mark.



Now here's the coverup. The same Gabriel Gatehouse investigates the sniper 'investigation' and accepts the UK teams official response which strangely 'omits the sniper that shot at Gatehouse and his crew from the Hotel Ukraine'. He accepts their explanation without questioning their omission of 'his' Hotel Ukraine sniper at the 2:20 mark in the following BBC video of the sniper investigation.

The logical question to ask would be 'why would a BBC reporter who knew that he was shot at from a specific Hotel accept without question a response that doesn't match his own personal reality?' This particular overlooked fact throws the entire sniper investigation and the BBC's role in said investigation into doubt. It also highlights the BBC's complicit role in covering up aspects of the Ukrainian crisis. There have been numerous other instances where the BBC either misled the public through deception or omission.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #5)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 09:23 AM

6. Here's another example of BBC coverup...this one in regards to MH-17.

 

The following video is the original BBC Video Report which was published by BBC Russian Service on July 23, 2014. Immediately after it was posted it was deleted by the BBC.

"Why did BBC delete this report by Olga Ivshina?

"Is it because the BBC team was unable to find any evidence that a rocket was launched in the area that the Ukrainian Security Service (“SBU”) alleges to be the place from which the Novorossiya Militia launched a “BUK” missile?

"Or is it because every eyewitness interviewed by the BBC team specifically indicated the presence of a Ukrainian military aircraft right beside the Malaysian Airlines Boeing MH17 at the time that it was shot down?

"Or is it because of eyewitness accounts in the report confirm that the Ukrainian air force regularly used civilian aircraft flying over Novorossiya as human shields to protect its military aircraft conducting strikes against the civilian population from the Militia’s anti-aircraft units?"

You Tube deleted the previous video.

Here's another copy.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #6)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 09:39 AM

7. It is satisfying to see proof that the BBC is capable of blatant propaganda, because there are other

stories in which they seemed to be involved in spreading disinformation. Seeing them caught multiple times provides some clarity as to their trustworthiness.

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Response to WhoProfits (Reply #7)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 10:11 AM

8. They were also complicit in the coverup of the Odessa Massacre.

 

They provided the lead off story that established the western media false narrative that was used by other media outlets. In their reporting on the tragedy at Odessa they cited a random unknown individual called ' Serhei' who supposedly told them that the victims in the building dropped a molotov cocktail and burned themselves alive.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27275383

Excerpt:

But Serhiy said he saw someone "on the third floor throw a Molotov cocktail through the closed window. However, the glass didn't break and a fire started inside".

People struggled to get out of the smoke-filled floor.

What the BBC didn't report was that there were actually two groups of pro Russian demonstrators. One downtown and one at the Trade Union building. The people at the Trade Union Building were not violent as the BBC reported and mostly consisted of women and elderly people. Victims died from strangulation, burnings, shootings, stabbing, suffocation, falls and beatings. The BBC omitted all of those methods of killing and accepted the random 'Serhei's' account without question.

Here's a link to a video of the true victims that shows who they really were.

The victims are at the 6:42 and 14:44 marks in the video proving they were not the violent hoodlums the BBC portrayed them as, they were many women, men and elderly people.

Here's a graphic photo stream showing how all the victims died.The BBC neglected to mention these killings including a woman who was raped and a pregnant woman who was strangled. http://ucmopuockon.livejournal.com/5885397.html

Here's a complete thread I posted at Democratic Underground right after the massacre occurred with additional evidence of the coverup. I was eventually banned and had my posts hidden at DU for posting this information as it didn't paint the current US administration in a positive light. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024970928

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #8)

Tue Aug 5, 2014, 08:06 AM

57. Thank you for sharing, Clarity of Signal

 

I appreciate your information rich posts very much

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Response to bpilgrim (Reply #57)

Tue Aug 5, 2014, 09:28 PM

60. Your welcome Billy Pilgrim.

 

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #6)

Mon Aug 11, 2014, 10:21 AM

117. Either those E. Ukranians have unbelievable eyesight ...

"Or is it because every eyewitness interviewed by the BBC team specifically indicated the presence of a Ukrainian military aircraft right beside the Malaysian Airlines Boeing MH17 at the time that it was shot down?

or the video is a hoax. I'll go with hoax.

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Response to DrJohn (Reply #117)

Wed Sep 3, 2014, 10:47 PM

121. If you watch the BBC witness testimony video

 

you can clearly see large patches of open blue sky. A human being can easily see planes at cruising altitude on clear days. They can see them even more so when they reflect the sunlight. In the video the witnesses report that the Ukrainian military jets commonly hid underneath commercial airplanes. This lends cause to believe that Ukraine is complicit either way for putting innocent civilian lives at risk.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 08:12 AM

4. Anybody else notice which story from 7/16 got bumped off the front page by this one on 7/17?

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Response to WhoProfits (Reply #4)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 10:29 AM

10. You are 100% correct.

 

The mass bombing and ethnic cleansing in Gaza was conducted at the exact same time.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #10)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 12:03 PM

14. The elders of zion are conspiring

with the imperialist dogs comrade. its not fair.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #10)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 12:37 PM

16. In particular, the deliberate shelling of children on the beach by an Israeli gun boat which was

inconveniently witnessed live by multiple reporters staying in a hotel nearby. The cover story was that the shells were errant shells, but the reporters on the scene said the boys ran from the first explosion and 30 seconds or so later the next shell hit and killed most or all them, as though they were deliberately targeted. The story was just gaining traction as a deliberate targeting of children when MH-17 happened less than 24 hours later.

If MH-17 was an accident, then so be it. If it was a deliberate plan then who knows who decided when to pull the trigger on it.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 10:30 AM

11. Well, that pretty much leads me to believe

it was Ukraine--not the Separatists, and it was an AAM--not a SAM. All smoke and mirrors.

Ballyhoo

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Response to joefriday6 (Reply #11)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 11:35 AM

12. It's crazy what's going on there....and crazy that we in the US are financing it.

 

They are now turning to forced mobilization and abductions to feed their war machine in Kiev. One of my friends husbands just received a draft notice. They have a new one year old baby boy and if her husband doesn't show up he will receive an automatic 5 to 7 years in jail. If he does go fight there is a strong possibility he will die. That's how crazy the situation there is. They are true nazis as they are forcing people to do their dirty work. The Novorossiyans, on the other hand, fight willingly as they are fighting for their own freedom from Kiev. http://www.sott.net/article/282971-SOTT-EXCLUSIVE-Ukraines-Nazi-regime-has-begun-forced-mobilization-and-roundup-of-men-like-cattle-for-slaughter-as-their-soldiers-starve-and-hunt-for-vipers

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 12:02 PM

13. Oh I've missed you guys..

so the new fling some monkey shit on the wall and see if it sticks story is an air to air shoot down, with guns no less, Top Gun style baby?

I thought with the turn of events in ukraine you gave up.

All the bullshit, all the lies will never supersede the keyhole information that was gathered, analyzed, and then provided to the NATO states.

All the stupid conspiracy garbage to cover up something so glaringly simple, either russians working with or their proxies fired an surface to air missile at what they thought was a Ukrainian IL-76, and because they are fucking morons hit an airliner.

This is what the world powers believe, this is what countries in the EU are acting on. The evidence that matters is ELINT and Visual gathered from the event, and most importantly BEFORE and after.

Contrary to popular belief NSA does do more than see which tube everyone is yankin it to on a given day, if they aren't using smoke signals we have it on tape.

carry on, and damn I miss the KGB, they did a much better job of this in the old days.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #13)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 12:41 PM

17. I've missed you too Pavulon. Your presence tells me I'm doing something right.

 

Thanks for keeping this at the top of the news feed so more people can learn the truth. Here's something i know will upset you even more greatly. It is the official Russian government presentation of civilian radar telemetry evidence that blows away the US's pre-high school black and white static image presentation. The Russians radar telemetry video includes real time flight patterns and analysis of the other civilian airliners over the combat zone with geo spatial coordinates and time stamps thereby proving it to be 'verifiable evidence'. The US presentation, on the other hand, includes no provable time and date stamp correlation or verifiable proof of location. The US 'evidence' also neglects to provide actual proof of a missile being launched.

The Russian Ministry of Defense have also pointed out that the US had two satellites directly over the crash area and asked them to release the video imagery from these satellites but thus far the US has refused. The US has also refused to acknowledge the fighter aircraft that the Russians point out in their radar telemetry video.

Couple the poor US presentation with the refusal by Kiev to release the ATC radar data and air traffic control recordings plus the US refusal to release the radar data from ships monitoring in the Black Sea and you have probable cause to believe the United States and Kiev are conducting a coverup of the truth in regards to the downing of flight MH-17. The fact they also lied about the Kiev juntas BuK missile systems also puts their credibility in doubt. Here's the Russia presentation for those that are seeking the truth and are not swayed by US government and media propaganda.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #17)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 12:53 PM

20. Thats civy trash

feel free to post overflight data collected by russian systems. They (you) have them as well.

The EU had made the next step, lets see where mr putin goes. BTW what happened to that rebel collapse, seems they are doing fine now.

You should read your old posts. they seem to bounce around, ukraine controls airspace, except when people are shooting down su-25's.

the government is falling, except when its stomping soviet proxies close enough to incur cross border shelling from russia.

remember, the US just gives germany video and intercepts (your boy snowden can clear this up for you), the german outcome is important. we in the US know putin is a slimey asshole who wants to be stalin, but is short on balls.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/spiegel-editorial-time-to-impose-tough-sanctions-on-russia-a-983210.html

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #20)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 01:07 PM

24. Speaking of flailing....

 

Last edited Sat Aug 23, 2014, 11:29 AM - Edit history (1)

how many confusing issues can you attempt to throw in one incoherent post? You've lost me on that one. I do like to stay focused so if you have anything of substance to add I would surely appreciate it. Oh and just to keep you spinning...here's the Russian digital audio analysis of the US's social media 'evidence'. It seems the audio files John Kerry cited were made the day before the crash and consist of different digital audio files digitally meshed together. The Russians used sound spectrum analyzers and audio host software to show that the files were each different and comprised of various audio wavelengths that did not correlate naturally. A basic studio engineer could have figured out that the files were fake.

Consider the fact the fake files were made the day before the plane went down and the US has now cited these files as their 'official evidence' leads one to ask...." is the US complicit in the atrocity, as whoever manufactured the fake audio and video the US used as evidence - knew in advance the plane was going to come down?".

Here's a more detailed analysis in Russian. I will see if I can find a subtitled version.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #13)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 12:43 PM

18. Absolutely. A surface-to-air missile equipped with a high caliber machine gun. Too cool.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 12:32 PM

15. Putin Separatist monkey lies

yup

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Response to MisterMan (Reply #15)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 12:46 PM

19. Nice rebuttal. You've swung me!

 

You certainly seem like a complex individual. I can't understand why anyone wouldn't be convinced by your arguments.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #19)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 12:59 PM

22. his arguments are simple and to the point

such as, drunk russian got buck fever and fired a SAM at a "bird" he thought was IL76, but murdered women and children. Then doubling down on being a fuckstick, russia denied it was their boys, even though there are more satellites watching than putin has brain cells.

consider how easy this could have been, putin (wearing a shirt this time) "there has been an accident, weapons we sold (a little white lie, he doesn't have to admit they crewed them) were involved in an accident.

were sorry, we will allow international forces under joint russia / nato cooperation to investigate and of course pay the families for the terrible accident.."

cause two days later it would be old news. like I said, old kgb was smart kgb. They still haven't figured out what fucking lie to run with, its hilarious, you know except for whose ever infant that was with its head split open. For them not so funny, Russia is making lots of friends.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #22)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 01:13 PM

25. What is that you just posted?

 

Schizophrenic tourrettes with a huge helping of flag waving nationalism? They certainly should pay you guys less if that's all your capable of. Can you provide any verifiable linked evidence to back up your blather?

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #25)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 06:10 PM

39. so today is machine gun?

tomorrow surface to air goose. what will that wacky fsb come up with next?

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #39)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 08:47 AM

42. Are you one of these guys?

 

because we obviously aren't getting our monies worth. Your posts are on the level of a 3rd grader.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks

Excerpt:

The US military is developing software that will let it secretly manipulate social media sites by using fake online personas to influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda.

A Californian corporation has been awarded a contract with United States Central Command (Centcom), which oversees US armed operations in the Middle East and Central Asia, to develop what is described as an "online persona management service" that will allow one US serviceman or woman to control up to 10 separate identities based all over the world.

The project has been likened by web experts to China's attempts to control and restrict free speech on the internet. Critics are likely to complain that it will allow the US military to create a false consensus in online conversations, crowd out unwelcome opinions and smother commentaries or reports that do not correspond with its own objectives.

The discovery that the US military is developing false online personalities – known to users of social media as "sock puppets" – could also encourage other governments, private companies and non-government organisations to do the same.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #42)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 09:27 AM

43. This is what people say

when they run out of position. you are welcome to alert me if you think i am not tos compliant.

at least i'm not tasked with creating the absolute shit coming from KGB these days. At least back in the day the real fear of being shot produced better work product. Seriously someone needs a vacation in siberia breaking rocks for the media coordination on this event.

every time some moron claims the poster who destroyed their position is a paid agent they are just tacking a sign on their forehead that says "weak sauce".

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #43)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 11:02 PM

49. I don't alert on people....that is for weak souls who can't debate.

 

I'll beat you with data. Fuck the jury system. It's a form of censorship. I certainly don't believe in that.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #49)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 11:09 PM

51. you beat me with nothing

you multiplex for RT and Interfax, the articles you post are garbage sources with ignorant claims. We still on a su-25 shot MH17 down with 30mm are we? Did you read that crap, multiple holes from the GSh-30-2 discussing cyclic rates. Idiots don't even understand proximity or contact fusing and that 30mm doesn't poke "holes".

never mind the su-25 cant climb to 30K so it would be firing from 10000 feet below. Have someone at the office run that through the fire control system simulator on that aircraft and see if it can calculate that shot properly. Unless the Ukrainian made the shot with no computer assistance...

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #51)

Tue Aug 5, 2014, 11:41 PM

65. It could have easily been Su-27's or 35's....

 

why are you stuck on the Su-25? Ukraine has all of them in their inventory.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #65)

Tue Aug 5, 2014, 11:47 PM

66. you sourced su-25 shootdown link in RT

personally my only question is was the SA crew active duty russian or loaners to the new russians. You know the same russians keeping tanks and other equipment running and shelling cross border. this isn't all that complex to follow.

Look at the pictures then look up damage from 30mm direct or proximity fused.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #66)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 12:01 AM

68. You mean the 3 Russian tanks the US could find when they needed them,

 

but then couldn't find the missile launch they claimed they have evidence of? Then a few days after the plane goes down they claim their satellites can see Grads firing from Russia and CBM's being fired in Ukraine....yet they can't seem to have any proof of that missile being fired that supposedly hit the plane. They can produce a pic from Twitter though! $700 billion a year and they get a pic from Twitter and a fraudulent voice recording from You Tube that was verifiably made the day before the plane crashed! You can't make this stuff up. It's like the US military has suddenly turned into Romper Room. Next they'll be citing Mrs. Cleo the former late night psychic to make a prediction on whether Russia has invaded or not. NTSB get out of the way.....Johnny McCain and Barack Obomber know what's going on in any air crash investigation before the planes hit the ground! We're gonna save a fortune in operating safety costs.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #68)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 12:15 AM

71. you think tla's are going to release

elint and visual data, really? they will share it with NATO member states and those states will act in response to what they have seen.

We spent trillions on systems to deal with the USSR, have comprehensive intelligence sources there and active (as they do here), and yes its a safe bet combined intercepts and visual information was on the presidents desk within an hour of the act. names, faces, audio, video, the whole sha-bang a bang.

You post to confuse and complicate, my post is quite simple and plausible. Best case russian trained personnel fired a weapon provided to them by the russians and killed 300 people, by accident.

plausible case, russian active duty military on loan or directly involved in the russian WAR in the region fired the weapon and destroyed the aircraft, by accident.

all this false flag 9 layer burrito makes my head hurt.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #71)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 02:55 PM

78. My post directly above has already laid your silly ass to waste.

 

Yet you blather on.........

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #78)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 03:26 PM

81. again, you post nothing

and again there are two remaining questions. russian crew operating under russian command or russian crew loaned to "separatist"? and who authorized weapon release.

the rest is in the bag.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #81)

Sat Aug 9, 2014, 06:05 PM

116. Keep on message Pavulon.

 

Your doing great! Keeping my posts up where people can see em!

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #21)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 01:02 PM

23. yada yada, turn over real time imagery

russia has coverage as well. just have them put it on a vcr tape and show the shootdown. you know they have it, I know they have it, so lets stop fucking around and deal with the situation.

where is the image of the su - 25 shooting it down (with guns now?)

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #23)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 01:22 PM

26. If anyone, the Ukrainian Ministry of the Interior would have that video.

 

Judging from the fact they confiscated the ATC data and recordings and the US isn't demanding they release it, I would venture to guess they also won't be releasing any video evidence that also incriminates themselves....same as the US satellite video. They will only be using social media this time around. Think about that, the most powerful nation on earth has decided to use social media and black and white stills in conjunction with a massive media campaign to convince the world of a major atrocity that they now want to label as a war crime in 2014. It is comical.

One would expect something a bit more substantial as evidence for $700 billion a year. Alas, the good news is we can now get rid of all future air crash investigative organizations and just rely on John Kerrys gut and a 1990's iMac....ya know the old purple cube you could buy at Radio Shack! Who needs evidence when you have team Obomber! We will save a fortune in future investigative costs.....it's a win win for everyone. Especially the innocent victims who were blown out of the sky and their families. Who needs closure and truth when you have Team Obomber and a digital camera that only takes black and white photos?

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #26)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 11:46 PM

54. There are exactly two questions left

was the weapon fired by an active duty russian crew or by "agents" ( dombass / dumbass) "volunteer" tractor mechanic didn't hop on a SAM system and figure it out.

Who is on intercept after the shootdown and are they just drunken incompetent morons or were they actively ordered to obstruct, who in russia ordered what when.

the rest is all quite clear at this point. Based on the reaction of european governments its pretty clear what happened, you shouldn't confuse not wanting to push a shooting war with acceptance of the act.

I bet putin is kicking himself for not listening to the guy who said fess up and call it what it was, a fuckup. I wonder if fsb shot the trigger pullers yet? check your ego before you check your dope, so they say.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #54)

Tue Aug 5, 2014, 09:37 PM

61. Speaking of drunk....

 

what kind of vodka are you drinking cause your all over the place......I'd love to get some.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #61)

Tue Aug 5, 2014, 11:24 PM

63. The polish kind

Wyborowa is nice. I read a nice piece in the LA times about potential impact to "innocent" businesses in sanctions process. Well written, it's much easier for the educated man to digest propaganda (not saying it is) when its not in RT format.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #63)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 12:12 AM

70. Any intelligent person knows that the sanctions will equally effect

 

both importers and exporters regardless of the country. Obama has hurt Visa, MasterCard, John Deere, Caterpillar, McDonalds, Mercedes Benz, Kelloggs, Heinz, the US poultry industry, Ford, Coke, Pepsi and numerous others....just to name a few. Russia will simply replace those businesses with products from other countries that are friendly to Russia..the same applies to banking and military parts. Essentially sanctions are equivalent to shooting ones self in the foot. The US Chamber of Commerce tried to warn the admin a month ago but the US wants that natural gas in Ukraine so they press on....like a moth to the flame. Read em and weep: http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2014/07/losers-from-us-sanctions-american-businesses/

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #70)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 12:16 AM

72. russia is a petro state with a fragile economy

the EU and US are not. its really that simple. the list of countries friendly with russia seems to be shrinking, killing 300 innocent people in your invasion of a neighbor state tends to do that.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #72)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 12:29 AM

75. Research the BRICS agreement....

 

Russia's influence is expanding...not shrinking. And as for all the sanctions thus far, each time they were issued Russia recovered relatively quickly. The best gauge is what the big companies are doing....and from what I'm reading Royal Dutch Shell and BP are convinced Russia is sound for the long term.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #75)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 12:35 AM

76. Y'all should bail out Argentina

Again Russia has a narrow economy based on trade with the eu and the sale of petro. They have lots to lose, the us has not much in a complete ussr style sanction system.

Poor Putin all he had to do was admit they did it and pay something, 500k a victim, and this would be old news.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #76)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 01:48 PM

98. The US has already paid $5 billion for the thousands of victims

 

who died in the Ukraine crisis....unfortunately they paid for them to die.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #98)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 01:52 PM

99. Wow, thats like 2.5 what we pay israel

to kill the Palestinians, care to site a source on where that money came from and went? if they had 5 billion dollars of us weapon systems it would have taken them much less time to push the russian proxies back to the russian border.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #99)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 03:34 PM

108. Straight from the horses mouth.

 

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #108)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 03:51 PM

109. Dude, time is money, I'm not watching 8 minutes of that

transcript is fine, hell even shady google docs that probably let the KGB have root on my system are ok, but I can't watch 8 minutes of shit video.

Can you give the point in time where she says "we gave 5 billion to start a war in ukraine?", i'll fast forward.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #109)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 05:49 PM

111. You are a lazy one.

 

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 01:29 PM

27. You would be better off

sticking to Elvis sightings. More believable.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 01:31 PM

28. And at 6:30, he points out the OSCE monitors aren't trained in what missile damage looks like

but says the experts have since arrived. And they are, of course, the people who have said it's consistent with a missile shooting it down.

Everyone agrees it was a missile that brought it down. The Russians say that too - they just say it was the Ukrainian government who fired it. So this thread seems a complete waste of time.

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Response to Muzzlehatch (Reply #28)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 01:41 PM

29. Actually the Russians have said that the plane was most likely

 

struck by an air to air missile in the right engine causing it to make a 14 mile left turn deviation (which would be shown if Kiev ATC and the US ships monitoring in the Black Sea released the radar data they have in their possession. The Russians say the plane continued to fly after it was hit which explains the turn and drop in altitude. They believe it was then hit again to bring it down. They don't specify what hit it the second time. Judging from the damage it was most likely a machine gun burst from the plane which had previously fired the missile. The same plane that the Russians show on their radar. The same plane that the US refuses to acknowledge existed in the airspace. Yet the civilian radar data the Russians have released which I link to above is 'verifiably sound evidence'. There is no way it can be faked as it matches all the flight data of the other airlines operating in the area. The Russians have the US in checkmate. The US is in complete denial and media coverup mode. Hence the reason they will not release any 'verifiable' official US government or military evidence and instead stick with social media and a couple of black and white stills. They are most likely adjusting the FDR evidence to fit the confiscated ATC evidence as we type.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #29)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 02:03 PM

30. As I said, the Russians say it was a missile that brought it down

I have never heard the bollocks you're coming out with now. The plane was shot down immediately - there was no mayday signal. There was no '14 mile left turn deviation'.

"Judging from the damage it was most likely a machine gun burst from the plane which had previously fired the missile". You're not qualified either to say what is machine gun damage. To attempt that from a few seconds' internet footage is laughable. I thought your efforts on DU were stupid, but this plumbs new depths of internet idiocy. It's on a level with the 9/11 'truthers'.

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Response to Muzzlehatch (Reply #30)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 02:14 PM

31. I guess Matt Lee of the Associated Press must be 'crazy' too as he questions

 

the US's questionable evidence? http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2014/07/229550.htm

Excerpt:

QUESTION: Well, okay. But I mean, I think we’re talking at cross-purposes here. I’m asking you --

MS. HARF: It wouldn’t be the first time.

QUESTION: (Laughter.) No, that’s true. What I’m asking – I mean, there are social – all you’re willing to present publicly that backs up your version of the story, which may well be the correct version of the story, but all you have --

MS. HARF: “May well be.”

QUESTION: Well, it may well be. But I don’t know because I haven’t seen your evidence that shows that the missile was launched from rebel-held territory. But you’re saying – so the only thing you’re willing to put out publicly is the social media accounts, I mean the social media stuff.

MS. HARF: That’s part of it.

QUESTION: Right. But there are social media accounts that says – that disputes that or that claims to present a different version. So are you saying --

MS. HARF: What would that version be, Matt?

QUESTION: Well, I don’t – there are many, many theories.

MS. HARF: Any --

QUESTION: But you’re saying that all of those accounts --

MS. HARF: Most of which are completely illogical, I would point out.

QUESTION: Well, but all of the accounts that do not support your version of events are wrong --

MS. HARF: No.

QUESTION: -- and all of the ones that do support it are right? Is that what you’re saying?

MS. HARF: Look, we make assessments based on a variety of intelligence and a variety of information, some of which we can talk about publicly and some of which we can’t.

QUESTION: Well, is the – are you --

MS. HARF: And we also – and look, if you just take a step back, right, we need there to be an investigation so we can get all the facts, period. But on top of that, we have public information, which is, of course, the easiest for us to talk about --

QUESTION: Right.

MS. HARF: -- of the separatists bragging about having the system, bragging about the attack that took place, and then walking back from it when it became known that it was a passenger jet. I would ask people who don’t believe our assessment to say, “Okay, what other possible explanation could be – could there be for that?” They defy logic, right?

QUESTION: Well, I don’t know if it defies logic or not, but --

MS. HARF: So when you start from a place of you have separatists out on – again, this is the easiest piece of information for us to talk about – online bragging about it, start there and then work from there and work from all of the evidence we have that we are confident we know where it was fired from, we’re confident we know what it was, and it points in a certain direction. Again, we would encourage Russia to support an investigation if they don’t believe the facts.

QUESTION: Right. It points in a certain direction, but I’m not sure it would stand up to an international --

MS. HARF: I strongly disagree. I absolutely believe that it would.

QUESTION: -- investigation. Well, are you willing, if not at this moment in time now but soon, to put forward the intel that you say backs the claims that were made on social media? And in particular, it seems to me that the Secretary was very definitive, as you were just now, at saying that you know for sure 100 percent --

MS. HARF: I didn’t say 100 percent. Nothing is 100 percent in any world, Matt. But go ahead. It is our assessment, very strong assessment.

QUESTION: Okay, very strong assessment that the rocket – that the missile was fired from the rebel-held territory.

MS. HARF: Mm-hmm.

QUESTION: And I mean, you can’t – there is no social media that I’m aware of that would lead to --

MS. HARF: Well, at the time that MH17 flight dropped out of contact, we detected a surface-to-air --

QUESTION: Yes.

MS. HARF: -- missile launch from a separatist-controlled area in southeastern Ukraine.

QUESTION: Yeah.

MS. HARF: Which we believe was an SA-11. What you want is the intelligence that underlies that?

QUESTION: Yeah. Well, I mean, they – the Russians have challenged – I’m not – I’m just saying the Russians have said --

MS. HARF: I’m just trying to clarify the question.

QUESTION: -- have said we’ve shown – we’ve put out our radar images which show this Ukrainian plane near at least – well, they have. I mean --

MS. HARF: Right.

QUESTION: Why don’t you put out your --

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #31)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 02:22 PM

33. US can't reveal their "doctored" version of evidence because Russia has the real evidence and can

prove that the Obama administration is lying.

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Response to Emma (Reply #33)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 02:37 PM

34. Your 100% correct Emma.

 

The US are digging a hole they may not be able to dig out of. If they release the data they incriminate themselves. If they doctor the FDR and ATC recordings and Russia released their military radar data they may also incriminate themselves. They would be better off claiming their fascist friends in Kiev got out of control with another one of their false flag attacks and shot down the plane. They can either kiss their Ukrainian friends goodbye or kiss all future trust in US foreign policy goodbye. I would think tossing the Ukies under the bus would be more to their long term advantage, alas they may have gone too far already.

Here's what veteran intelligence officers think of the current US case regarding MH-17. http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-mh17-crash-us-veteran-intelligence-officers-slam-the-flimsy-intelligence-against-russia/5393959

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #34)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 03:05 PM

36. Exactly. You KNOW that if the US had data that backed up their claims, they'd have shown it

within a day of the shootdown.

The US to this day has not done so.

That alone gives the critical thinker pause.

Other nations are watching how the US behaves re: Ukraine at this point, and I cannot imagine they're pleased with the ongoing belligerence and troublemaking out of DC. I think Russia has probably already shared their data with certain nations, probably China, maybe - MAYBE - Germany. That's yet another reason the US has not come out with any data that backs their claims: they don't know who has seen Russia's evidence, so they can't be sure who will immediately know that they're lying, and that could be a problem for the US..

Don't discount the way Obama has treated the US ally Israel, either: Allies who believed they could always count on US support see Obama's atrocious comments to and lack of support for Israel and you KNOW they have to wonder if they needed US support, would it be there for them. It is the correct question.

All of this is part of the takedown of the US by the left: by the time Obama leaves office, the US will be the pariah.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #31)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 03:38 PM

38. He's not make shit up out of thin air. You are.

You're pretending the Russians have said stuff that they haven't. If your purpose is to make them look credible in comparison to the BS you produce, then I guess it's working.

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Response to Muzzlehatch (Reply #30)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 02:18 PM

32. Let me refer you to some nice long threads to bring you up to par....

 

as you seem lost in the woods again. http://www.discussionist.com/101433039

This is one of my favorites! http://www.discussionist.com/101430211

And this one from fellow Discussionist member Emma is also quite good. http://www.discussionist.com/101434833

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Response to Muzzlehatch (Reply #30)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 02:44 PM

35. The 14 mile deviation is covered in full here.

 

You won't find this type of analysis in US media presentations....they would prefer you stick with the narrative they have chosen for you....which you seem quite content to believe....being the good citizen you appear to be. I can't say I'm as trusting of my government.


http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 03:20 PM

37. The 'official' investigation is now going to be one where the Kiev junta are

 

allowed to investigate themselves. David Cameron has apparently given the Kiev junta the ability to make sure the flight data recorders match the air traffic control recordings and data. Since when has any investigation ever allowed a suspected party to be party to the investigation of it's own actions? When the FDR's were given over to the British it was bad enough but now the British are including the Kiev junta in their investigation we can expect that all previously un-compromised evidence is now going to be fully compromised and highly suspect. Of course that doesn't matter to the US and it's proxies as they already have announced the result of their findings during their massive media push before the plane hit the ground. http://rinf.com/alt-news/featured/official-investigation-downing-malaysian-plane-now-clearly-hoax/

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 06:50 PM

40. If there are MG bullet holes in that plane,

they were put there AFTER it crashed.

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Response to who_what_where (Reply #40)

Sat Aug 2, 2014, 07:02 PM

41. You must work for the State Department as your 'evidence'

 

is almost as compelling as that of sociopathic State Department mouthpiece Marie Harf above.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 04:14 PM

44. A few salient points to mention.....

 

The Obama administration has NEVER inquired about the communications recordings between Air Traffic Control (ATC) and the aircrew of MH17. Why? Don’t they want to KNOW what happened?

Nor have they asked for the information on the specific INSTRUCTIONS from the Ukraine Aviation Administration to the air traffic control units of Ukraine with relation to the imposed restrictions on the airspace utilization in the area of Donetsk and Lugansk.

Nor are they interested in why MH17 was REROUTED OVER A WARZONE, 200 kilometers north of all previous flights for the last two weeks. Or whether MH17 was in fact being FOLLOWED by Ukrainian WARPLANES. Or whether Ukrainian SAM units were ACTIVE in the area before the incident took place.

How does one explain the Obama administration’s total LACK OF INTEREST in ANY area of the current investigation? Doesn’t that suggest that they ALREADY KNOW what happened? And doesn’t that also suggest that they’re trying to PREVENT the facts from leaking out?"

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #45)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 10:46 PM

48. That is a steaming pile of dig shit

seriously, look at that image in your own shitty link, you honestly think that damage was done by 30mm cannon from a jet designed for CAS? really? Does that look like a 30mm hit in that picture?

30MM he proximity fuse or contact fired will kill crew and disable critical systems (hydraulic, etc) but does not create the same overpressure as a SA warhead. cannon fire is "strung" along and would space differently (assuming it was fired from something other than an su-25 which can't hit 30k clean, never mind with a combat load), so yeah that link is dog shit position.

So yeah, 30mm fired (fits in your hand BTW) from 20 some thousand feet to hit at 30k cruising speed, sounds like a winner. seriously I guess they don't shoot people at KGB anymore for shit work.



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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #48)

Tue Aug 5, 2014, 09:08 AM

59. Yeah, if you wait long enough they shoot what little credibility they have right to hell.

30mm auto-cannon fire doesn't cluster like that, especially considering the type of 30mm ammo and gun system these truthers are claiming being used here. These rounds don't punch neat little holes either, they make long gouges with significant secondary fragmentation.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 05:35 PM

46. Mike Whitney of Counterpunch asks some poignant questions

 

in regards to the downing of MH-17 that leave the US in a highly deceptive light. http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/08/01/the-unanswered-questions-of-mh17/

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #46)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 07:24 PM

47. If I might add, Liberals have a weakness

for conspiracy theories?

Why are you trying so hard to exonerate Russia?

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Response to who_what_where (Reply #47)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 11:05 PM

50. Exonerating Russia isn't as important as revealing the truth.

 

The US is obviously covering up the truth. That is what concerns me. The people who died and their families deserve the truth as do all future flyers who may be concerned that the US might choose to use them for a false flag operation.

Adversely, why are you not concerned about the truth and are concerned about covering up for the United States? Does nationalism trump your humanity?

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #50)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 11:13 PM

52. false flag?

so is the "truth" SA11 today or GSh-30-2 30mm cannon fired from an SU-25. maybe the US just shot it down directly, you know, to make putin look like an asshole.

My common sense trumps my ability to ingest the efforts of a foreign intelligence community spamming "news".

The people who matter have seen the video and read the translated intercepts. Germany is your problem, not the US.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Sun Aug 3, 2014, 11:25 PM

53. Links from real sources inside...

Jane's. These here are what you call real sources, from real sites that pay a penalty when they publish trash.

also quite informative, note the nice little holes, 30mm he proximity or contact does not do this..

try harder. ivan is working overtime bullshitting on this one.

http://www.janes.com/article/40908/mh017-mostly-likely-downed-by-russian-backed-separatists

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/21/world/europe/wreckage-offers-clues-on-why-flight-17-went-down.html

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #53)

Tue Aug 5, 2014, 06:54 AM

56. Comical...the Janes article came out 3 days after the event with no evidence produced

 

as of that time....therefore just speculation and we all know the NY Times shilled and lied us into the Iraq war. Do you have anything of substance aside from orgs that are obviously in the bag for the US and Uk admins?

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #56)

Tue Aug 5, 2014, 08:57 AM

58. So that pattern is from a 30mm prox

fused round fired from an airplane that can't fly above 22k or so?

try harder. again 2 questions remain. russian active duty or agents, who gave the order.

So your response is to shit on janes and the ny times and ignore the data, you do realize how that makes you look right?

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #58)

Tue Aug 5, 2014, 11:20 PM

62. The planes can easily handle that altitude with modifications

 

and pilots using oxygen masks.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #62)

Tue Aug 5, 2014, 11:27 PM

64. so can an A-10

but its not generally used to shoot down aircraft. You can google images from 30mm cannon testing done with proximity and contact fused rounds. Just doesn't do that type of damage.

Plus it would require a visual ID, which is improbable since the betting man looks at this and sees a fuckup which russia can't easily admit at this point.

They missed the "accident, we did it (us navy / iran airline) response". I bet someone wishes they took the blue pill about right now.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #64)

Tue Aug 5, 2014, 11:53 PM

67. I see you spinning and attempting to enforce baseless propaganda

 

but you never offer any linked solid evidential proof to anything. Instead you just repeat talking points and parrot 'the opposing party has nothing'. Your looking like a serious idiot at this point as the only thing you have to back up any of your assertions is the old ," I say so". You can't prove in any way, shape or form that the shoot down by missile or machine gun is correct. You have nothing. You just parrot that one trumps the other based upon nothing....no sound evidence.....no reinforced grounded opinions....no verifiable anything. I thank you for helping me make my case and for helping point out that everything I have produced far exceeds what little you have produced. Any discerning reader can see that. Maybe you can address the maximum service ceiling height of all of Ukraines other fighter jets as you've spent so much time refuting the service ceiling of an Su-25? They could have easily used any of their planes that have 30mm machine guns and reach the required service ceiling height and you and I both know a modified Su-25 can get there with a pilot with oxygen. You'd just prefer not to admit that fact.

In regards to your comment about "a betting man", I think a betting man who had witnessed all the previous Right Sector/Ukrainian nazi false flags could easily bet that they are capable of shooting down that plane and attempting to blame it on the rebels and Russia. I have proven to you multiple times in this thread and other threads that they have murdered innocent people before and blamed it upon....themselves. They are nazis.....that's what they do.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #67)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 12:07 AM

69. Everyone that matters has eyes in the sky

and is watching and listening and has been for months. There was no modified su-25, there is just no fucking way it was an air to air shoot down. Flight data recorder will back this up. It wasn't a Ukrainian attack goose, it was russian SAM equipment.

Again, two questions remain, was the crew russian and who authorized the weapon release. comblock and central command, some things never change.

you have proven exactly nothing, furthermore the sites you link are trash. NATO, Janes, NYT, are very clear with photo analysis.

Russia is firing into ukraine now, and there is a decent chance other shoot downs originated in russian territory.

There is no need to address other fighters, RT only tried to pimp a su-25 angle, which is trash.

stop with the nazi stuff, no one cares even if they are it is irrelevant to this event.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #69)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 12:26 AM

73. You've made my point.....

 

you only have baseless opinions. Goodnight.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #73)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 12:27 AM

74. Watch germany and the eu

They will make my point, evening.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #62)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 03:12 PM

79. here, I spanked another RT agit prop dispenser...

let this serve as my rebuttal to your constant Pravdaesque silliness

http://discussionist.com/10191383

any reponses can be made there, bring your notebook and a friend who might actually know something insted of merely relying on EITHER SIDES Mis/Dis info..
thnx
signed
Informed reader

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Response to _eek (Reply #79)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 04:38 PM

83. I just read that post....

 

if you call that a spanking you obviously don't know what the fuck your talking about. Nothing you posted there has any linked verifiable evidence to back up your assertions. On the other hand the person you posted against provided detailed links with sound reasoning. You don't dare delve into the US's lack of any verifiable evidence linking the rebels or any other party to the crime. You have obviously seen mine and other posts here all week yet you haven't addressed any of those linked provable assertions. You seem lazy in your writing and think that declaring you "spanked" somebody makes you a force to be reckoned with. I don't see that....I see you as a weak minded fool who should do more research to back up their unsourced assertions. Now get to work and mitigate some of my points rather than declaring yourself king shit of turd mountain. I've got tons of material here and in the other news threads for you to go through when you get off your lazy arse.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #83)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 04:55 PM

85. you repost..

Google fu leaves me bored, and you have no intrinsic knowledge of any of the points being debated, neither MACRO in terms of geo political, nor MICRO, such as weapons systems, aircraft capability or ballistic damage tables..

You could not argue a single point from personal knowledge, you merely repeat agit prop and lies from you plethora of anti West blogs spots and sensationalist websites... your signal is not all 5 by 5 sir...

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Response to _eek (Reply #85)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 05:16 PM

87. Here enjoy this for dinner.

 

Let's see you refute the Russian radar video evidence and presentation with real time footage of the other commercial planes in the sky that corresponds to the true air traffic situation on the day. Hold that up against the social media evidence that the US presented along with their 2 black and white stills....that didn't show a missile launch...then get back to me on which presentation best represents that of a 'Superpower'. When your done with that maybe then we can talk. Here's something for you to chew on that didn't come from the US corporate media that decided who was guilty before the plane hit the ground.

Our own State Department won't even acknowledge that Kiev had fighter planes in the sky. Think about that. Think logically. They had planes in the sky for the last 3 months, yet on the day the plane goes down they declare they had 'no' planes in the sky. Do you seriously think they are telling the truth? Suddenly they have no planes in the sky. It's comical. http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140806/191783761/MH17-Brought-Down-by-Air-to-Air-Missile-Finished-Off-by-30-mm.html

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #87)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 05:27 PM

88. you are wasting your snark and bile

I dont push a narrative, I merely refute the supposed evidence you people seem to think is a holy grail of blame..

Nobody is presenting a clear narrative, the rerasons are myriad, and not something I play with, I deal in hard facts, and neither side is presenting any... Why would that be?

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Response to _eek (Reply #88)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 03:16 AM

92. We all push narratives....Read em and weep....someone is pushing a chosen narrative...

 

the one I chose.....and it seems the Malaysian new outlets are reporting that the plane shoot down theory is the correct one. Here's a link to the New Strait Times one of Malaysia's biggest online news outlets.

http://www.nst.com.my/node/20925



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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #92)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 08:41 AM

93. Each and every source you people post

relies almost completely on the first guy there, a man with no training in the field, making a comment about holes in the skin...

same guy, same quote, same lack of depth and training... I have no dog accept to say you need better and trained sources.. you are the funny part of my day, well that and the NWO conspiracist at the water cooler, I find you both as credible... got any Big Foot cattle mutilation theories? wait i know, it wasnt a plane it was HAARP and the Haliburton hurricane machine trying to cover yet another escape by Batboy....

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Response to _eek (Reply #93)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 11:35 AM

94. And everything you post is an attempt to discredit....

 

yet you never offer any evidence to make an argument of your own...except the 'official' one the US put forth before the plane hit the ground. Maybe you could get off your lazy butt and put some time in to actually make your own case. Ah but that would require you to come away from your distraction task. That's how sad you are. You only have what you have been spoon fed. No mind of your own. Am I debating with a child?

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 02:04 AM

77. New data coming in....

 

this link shows photographic verifiable evidence that the BuK missile system that the US cited as 'the BuK missile system' that took down MH-17 was actually out of range of the target area and could not have reached the ill fated airliner. This information throws the entire US presentation into suspicion as it was physically impossible for that particular US cited BuK missile system at that particular cited location to reach the plane. The OP at the link provides detailed analysis taking into consideration elementary physics applied to what is currently believed to be known about the downing of MH-17. Simply put, the plane was out of range of the BuK system the US cited as the one that shot down the plane.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByibNV3SiUoobnpCVDduaHVORHM/edit?usp=sharing

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 03:25 PM

80. From your deleted post (which i didn't alert)

my response to the garbage. I think its best to leave this stuff, it shows the russian position and their intelligence services reaction to this event.


that's oped with no sourcing. Jane's (not a shill) says it, NATO says it, pretty much everyone but the KGB says it.

oh well.

From your "source" which cites no sources.

Aircraft cannon normally fire in bursts in order to place a cloud of lead on the target and ensure a

hit. The damaged port side cockpit fuselage clearly shows evidence of multiple impacts. Why is

it that the port wing surface shows only a single bullet graze?

Aircraft cannon don't use lead in a HE projectile. They either explode on contact or in proximity, they also do different damage than the massive explosion from a warhead.

you know frag off that weapon is going to be in those bodies right?

Unless OP provides soviet satellite visuals, unaltered showing cause, there is nothing more to add at this point.

except confusion.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #80)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 04:11 PM

82. That particular OP doesn't require sourcing, what matters is the material.

 

Sourcing is trumped by physics. It is much more likely that a source may be biased. Physics, on the other hand, doesn't lie. Here's a different link to it for those who were reluctant to click on the Google file drive.http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ru/2014/08/detailed-expert-analysis-of-mh17-downing.html

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #82)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 04:50 PM

84. corrct, physics does not lie

and either tungsten, or DU rounds, the most likely type of rounds used in a 30mm cannon will not do what is shown in those photos show.. bone up on your KE knowledge

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Response to _eek (Reply #84)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 06:02 PM

90. even if you spot him 30mm HE prox

which I don't now if the soviets even made the pictures from janes and nyt don't show anything like what that weapon would do.

assuming it could intercept at 30k (su-25), assuming the pilot used his cannon vs AA (he wouldn't), assuming all that it just doesn't line up.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #90)

Fri Aug 8, 2014, 01:31 AM

113. Here's the proof it was a 30mm cannon

 

http://www.4thmedia.org/2014/08/systematically-reconstructing-the-shoot-down-of-the-mh17-the-guilt-is-clear-and-damning/ Check the pictures. Notice the massive amount of damage directly where the pilot was sitting. They aimed directly upon him. Thats why there is a gaping hole there.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #113)

Fri Aug 8, 2014, 06:38 AM

114. no

i see a series of small holes. I don't see a cannon hit. cannon fire is not AIMED at a pilot from something that cycles 3000ppm. I mean assuming an su-25 could even make the shot, it can't.

now go look up gun camera footage from AA shootdowns and see how they aim. Check out modern american stuff, see not aiming at anything in particular.

now you thing a soviet piece of shit is any different or better?

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #82)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 05:58 PM

89. I trust janes, which i pay for

vs some political hack, so does the EU apparently.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #82)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 08:36 PM

91. Citing Russian blogs now?

Slept through high school physics and can't find credible, unbiased sources to cite.

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Response to .30M1 (Reply #91)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 11:36 AM

95. By unbiased....do you mean US corporate media?

 

A little thing called the Iraq war comes to mind. How did the US media work out for you on that one?

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #95)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 01:53 PM

100. Jane's, Der Spiegel

there are plenty of non western / non soviet news sources reporting on this event.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #100)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 02:07 PM

103. Those are two western sources you donut.

 

Der Spiegel has been a major mouthpiece for the Kiev government. They went right down hill over the last few years whereas once they were good....similar to the Guardian. Janes DW has already been caught lying by omission during the Ukraine crisis. They put out an article on the BuK's and didn't mention that they are mobile and require a large manned team to operate with at least two of the 3 vehicles. Instead they implied they were stationary. That puts even Janes DW reporting into suspicion. They do work regularly with the British government so it comes as no surprise.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #103)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 03:14 PM

106. umm, RT IS the russian government

its state tv and every respectable journalism review knows it. CJR / AJR identify RT as state tv.

now lets move on, Janes publishes many articles and has a long history on reporting on events.

pick a news wire, any news wire, just not RT, I know what the kremlin wants me to think, I prefer the truth.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #106)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 03:33 PM

107. You'll get what I give you comrade...either that or find your own info.

 

It gets a little old schooling you.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #107)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 03:52 PM

110. da..

i'll stick to AFP they hate us as much as they hate you guys. seems fair enough.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Wed Aug 6, 2014, 05:03 PM

86. Once AGAIN, the rebels claimed responsibility until they knew it was civilian.

Even Al Queada doesnt claim attacks they dont actually do.

The US wont release data because we dont want the world to see just how well we CAN see things out there.

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Response to spike61 (Reply #86)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 11:38 AM

96. Another stupid post.

 

The recording has already been debunked. The You Tube creation date was the day before the plane went down. Keep sucking up the US corporate media propaganda.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #96)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 12:46 PM

97. Yours is the stupid one. The msg. posted 35 mins after the shootdown

You dont know what you're talking about. It was a tweet, not a video. Who "debunked" the video? Russia Today?Go back to Infowars and keep sucking up to Putin. How are you going to explain away the upcoming invasion from Russia?

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Response to spike61 (Reply #97)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 01:53 PM

101. You must of missed this above...another ignorant misinformed poster you seem to be...

 

the Russian digital audio analysis of the US's social media 'evidence'. It seems the audio files John Kerry cited were made the day before the crash and consist of different digital audio files digitally meshed together. The Russians used sound spectrum analyzers and audio host software to show that the files were each different and comprised of various audio wavelengths that did not correlate naturally. A basic studio engineer could have figured out that the files were fake.

Consider the fact the fake files were made the day before the plane went down and the US has now cited these files as their 'official evidence' leads one to ask...." is the US complicit in the atrocity, as whoever manufactured the fake audio and video the US used as evidence - knew in advance the plane was going to come down?".

That is directly from the Russians themselves...not a conspiracy theory website. The Russians evidence is much more impressive than the US's elementary school social media presentation....and they released it all right away. Unlike the US who waited a week. presented nothing and then has withheld other information......why...because it incriminates Kiev and thereby themselves.....so instead they are doctoring the FDR's and ATC data while we type. It will all correlate in the end and they will show no proof of a missile being launched. The fix was in before the plane hit the ground...probably before the plane left the ground.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #101)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 02:51 PM

104. "RUSSIAN" digital analysis?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA

The message was sent 35 minutes after the plane went down. Say what you will about the youtube stuff, who cares. Follow your Russian masters.

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Response to spike61 (Reply #104)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 03:10 PM

105. The fact that the message went online 35 minutes after the plane went down

 

backs up the false flag theory. Do you seriously think the Kiev regime was just lucky enough to stumble upon a conversation 35 minutes after the plane went down? Now ask yourself, if they were bugging the rebels phones prior to the event wouldn't they have already beaten them by now as they would have known all their conversations related to rebel troop movements prior? Yet they suddenly acquire one 'faked' conversation (as proven by the digital spectrum analysis of the audio) 35 minutes after the plane hits the ground. I encourage you to read up on Audio Host software and how it allows users to observe digital audio WAV files. I'm sure you won't bother as you seem ignorant to logic.

Any logical thinking person would deduct that since the video was made the day prior, as proven by the creation date, the audio was faked as proven by the Wav file analysis and the fact that the 'Kiev government' released said video as evidence, yet had no prior recordings of rebel commanders in conversation, that the people that released the fake prior made video with separate digital audio wavelengths are most likely the people that brought the plane down due to the fact they had prior knowledge as well as mean, motive, opportunity, ability and would benefit most by blaming it on the rebels.

Couple all of that with the fact that they have conducted numerous false flag attacks prior and they are comprised of nazis and I would think that a reasonable person can deduct that there is a very strong possibility it was the Kiev regime that shot the plane down.

They are factually proven to have lied twice in regards to MH-17. 1) They said they had no BuK's in the combat theatre. That is a proven lie at this point.

2) They said they had no planes in the sky that day. Yet witness testimony proves otherwise. Russian radar proves otherwise and for 60 days prior they had planes in the sky everyday conducting bombings of civilians. Therefore they expect people to believe the 'one day' that MH-17 goes down...they suddenly have no planes in the sky. They are caught outright lying and being deceptive in regards to the investigation. That is a red flag.

Adversely for the rebels there is no benefit to be had by shooting down the plane. For them it could have only been an accident. For Kiev it was premeditated cold blooded horrific murder...which we all know they are capable of already as they have killed over 1,000 of their own citizens who peacefully voted to separate from their murderous nazi regime which the US supports.

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Response to spike61 (Reply #97)

Thu Aug 7, 2014, 01:56 PM

102. russian peace keeping mission

to bring peace and equality to Ukraine. arsonist firefighters.

that's how they will justify it.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Reply #112)

Fri Aug 8, 2014, 06:49 AM

115. and a countering real news source

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/europe-prepares-tough-sanctions-against-russia-a-983224.html

i put the English language site up, there is more in german but mine is not that good anymore.

watch germany, they are the ones who can hammer mr putins balls to the floor with the stroke of a pen.

they all know who shot it down, they've seen the video I guess..

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Mon Aug 11, 2014, 07:41 PM

118. New info coming to light...

 

This info and link is to CyberBerkut who have now shed some light on the downing of MH-17. Cyberberkut is reporting they hacked Kolomoiskys assistants Facebook account and have produced evidence it was he along with Ukrainian Minister of Defense Anatoliy Gritsenko who orchestrated the shoot down of MH-17. They have the screenshots to prove it. Full transcript at the link: http://en.voicesevas.ru/news/analytics/2793-kolomoyskiy-assistants-facebook-account-hacked-the-boeing-downed-by-junta.html

Screenshots of the hacked account verifying the messaging are at the bottom of the link.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Sun Aug 17, 2014, 12:57 AM

119. Another odd angle related to MH-17 and the propaganda aspect.

 

Overlooked....the mysterious imprisoned US spy who gave the Daily Mail witness testimony about MH-17
Here's something verifiable and very strange for people looking for more in regards to anomalies related to the shoot down of Malaysia airlines flight MH-17. This is a Daily Mail article that came out on the 18th of July that quotes a Dr Igor Sutyagin. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696975/Putin-blames-Ukraine-loss-Flight-MH17-298-innocent-souls-DOESNT-deny-Russian-separatists-shot-missile-McCain-warns-Hell-pay.html Here's the excerpt and quote in question: Dr Igor Sutyagin, Research Fellow in Russian Studies from the Royal United Services Institute, believes that MH17 was shot down by rebels based in the 3rd District of Torez, in eastern Ukraine, after mistaking his plane for a government military transport aircraft.

He told MailOnline that information had been leaked from a source he was unwilling to name that the pilot of MH17 'felt bad' about his course over Ukrainian airspace, so changed direction.
Little did he know, according to Dr Sutyagin, that his plane would then be mistaken by rebels who brought it down using a ground-to-air Buk missile system. Malaysia Airlines today denied that the plane was told to alter its course.

Dr Sutyagin said: 'There is a Ukrainian mechanised brigade blocked by separatists near the Russian border. 'It's blocked on three sides by separatists and behind the brigade is the Russian border, so they can't get out. The Ukrainians try to resupply them from the air by transport aircraft.

'Now, the pilot of MH17 said that he "felt bad" and wanted to change course south to get out of the danger zone. But several kilometers to the south is a Ukrainian Army heavy transport plane, an IL76, or Candid, which has the same echo as a 777 on a radar screen.

'The two planes came close. They tried to shoot down the transport delivering supplies to the brigade. They believed that they had been firing at a military plane, but they mistakenly shoot down a civilian airliner.'

Now the first natural question to ask would be "how does Dr. Igor Sutyagin know that the pilots felt bad?" Did he have any contact with them or with someone who did? The Daily Mail specifically quotes him as knowing how the pilots 'felt'. The US and EU media are saying there were no last words of contact or anything out of the ordinary with MH-17. Yet Dr. Sutyagin says the pilots felt bad. He also specifically states there was a Ukrainian transport plane in close proximity... yet the Ukrainian Interior Ministry have said they had no other planes airborne at that time. Someone is obviously not telling the truth. I believe this Dr. Sutyagin may have been trying to provide a false alibi for the planes recognized on the Russian radar presentation. Now here's the clincher. Guess who this Igor Sutyagin works for? Here's the links:

https://www.rusi.org/analysis/authors/ref:B4DD39DA614B84/
Royal United Services Institute
for Defence and Security Studies
Whitehall, London, SW1A 2ET, Great Britain
T: +44 (0)20 7747 2600

And here's what that RUSI page reads: Igor worked at the Institute of US and Canadian Studies for 12 years at the Political-Military Studies Department where he held the position of the Head of Section, the US military-technical and military-economy policy.

And here's his Wiki page, it's a very interesting read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Sutyagin He was a spy who the Russian government imprisoned for espionage. He was then traded to the US in exchange for 10 Russian spies who had been captured. (10 for 1.) He must be a pretty valuable asset if the US gave up 10 spies for him. Since then he has worked for the US and UK governments on issue related to foreign policy and Russia. Obviously his giving info in regards to MH-17 calls for further serious questioning.

To sum up we have a former Russian who became a spy for the US, who got caught and imprisoned by the Russian government and sentenced to 15 years, who was then swapped for 10 Russian spies and is now working for Whitehall and the US Defense Intelligence Agency ....giving information about the last moments of MH-17 which contradict the official story and leave one to ask "how did he know how the pilots of MH-17 felt?" This is a bombshell and it needs to be explored further.

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Wed Aug 20, 2014, 09:56 AM

120. Australia shows that the US lied about the rebels.

 

&feature=youtu.be

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Response to Clarity of Signal (Original post)

Wed Sep 3, 2014, 10:57 PM

122. Nope, if Putin manages not to start a shooting war

With NATO he can get by murdering 300 people with shitty Sam systems that didn't tell the drunks running it the the target was squaking as an airliner.

We're overdue for a big war 40 million is a reasonable assumption based on the last one if it stays conventional.

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