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Tue Dec 25, 2018, 08:08 PM

The tax law is 1 year old -- here are the winners and losers

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President Donald Trump made some bold promises last year when he signed the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act into law on Dec. 22, 2017. Among the boldest -- that middle-class workers would see a pay increase of $4,000 to $9,000 and that the richest Americans wouldn't gain "at all" under the plan.
By those measures, the tax reform package has fallen short, some experts say. Wage growth remains modest, and most middle-class taxpayers have seen only a middling financial boost from lower tax rates, which declined by about 1 percent to 4 percent.
Meanwhile, the biggest benefits went to the rich and "increased the inequality of income," wrote William G. Gale, the co-director of the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center, this week in an article for the Brookings Institution. He also said the tax cuts are unlikely to boost long-term growth and could mire the economy in debt.

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/taxes/the-tax-law-is-1-year-old-here-are-the-winners-and-losers/ar-BBRhLwc?ocid=spartandhp

Big surprise.
Big businmess and the rich made out like bandits. And our children will pay for it.

Typical GOP economics

184 replies, 3717 views

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Reply The tax law is 1 year old -- here are the winners and losers (Original post)
Salaam Dec 25 OP
Da Mannn Dec 25 #1
Salaam Dec 25 #2
BigKahunna2.0 Dec 25 #14
tikal Dec 27 #45
oflguy Dec 25 #3
Salaam Dec 25 #4
oflguy Dec 25 #5
Salaam Dec 25 #7
oflguy Dec 25 #9
freedumb2003 Dec 25 #15
Bubba Dec 26 #16
Tovera Dec 26 #29
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Salaam Dec 28 #75
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Sullivan Dec 29 #86
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Hey Mikey Dec 27 #44
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Charlie Mike Dec 27 #40
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oflguy Dec 28 #60
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Oldgeezer Dec 26 #27
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oflguy Wednesday #160
tikal Dec 27 #46
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rahtruelies Dec 25 #6
Salaam Dec 25 #8
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Salaam Dec 28 #74
Badsamm Dec 25 #10
tikal Dec 27 #47
quad489 Dec 25 #11
foia Dec 25 #12
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Response to Salaam (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2018, 08:11 PM

1. MSN. Proven Fake News. Can't trust it.

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Response to Da Mannn (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 25, 2018, 08:15 PM

2. Yep.

Great answer.

What I expected.

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Response to Salaam (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 25, 2018, 09:28 PM

14. In 2014 the top 1 percent paid over 39 percent of all taxes

Last edited Wed Dec 26, 2018, 08:12 AM - Edit history (1)

You need to educate yourself instead of just spewing your lies

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-federal-income-tax-data-2017/

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Response to Da Mannn (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 05:45 PM

45. Yep, proven by

Donald J. Trump, pathological liar an chief, because he keeps saying so.

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Response to Salaam (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2018, 08:24 PM

3. Corporations don't pay taxes, silly, you do when you buy from them

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Response to oflguy (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 25, 2018, 08:26 PM

4. Rich people pay very little.

So you pay more.

And that's how the world works.

Enjoy the Trump boom economy.

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Response to Salaam (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 25, 2018, 08:28 PM

5. Rich people pay the vast majority of taxes in this country

You didn't know that?

What do you care? You are a foreigner.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 25, 2018, 08:30 PM

7. Got it.

LOL

Bone Spurs rewarded the rich.

Our kids will pay for it.

MAGA

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Response to Salaam (Reply #7)

Tue Dec 25, 2018, 08:33 PM

9. Nice evasion

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Response to Salaam (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 25, 2018, 09:52 PM

15. That is factually untrue

 

The rich pay almost ALL the taxes. It is the lower class who not only don't pay taxes but pay ngative taxes.

But you have never seen more than $100 a time in your life so you understandably envy and haate those who work more than you (which is pretty much every one) and as a result are well compensated.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 02:50 AM

16. Was Just On A Jury For This Post.

Voted to let it stand, but I gotta say the gratuitous insult at the end is petty and uncalled for.

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Response to Bubba (Reply #16)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 04:04 PM

29. Then why not vote to hide?

That's _exactly_ the sort of situation in which the rules call for a hide: a straight-up, unnecessary personal insult.

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Response to Tovera (Reply #29)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 06:42 PM

54. lefty seems a little thin skinned about an accurate observation

 

lefty has rich envy b/c lefty is lazy. Lefty is the home and source of gibmedat.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #54)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 09:01 PM

75. You are the one calling names.

I get it. Trump is screwing over the country.

Don't blame Uncle Sal.

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Response to Salaam (Reply #75)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 12:18 AM

81. observations are not "calling names"

 

but thanks for confirming to us all you are 12 years old.

"Mommy! Make the bad man stop telling the truth about me! Whhaaaahhh!"

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Response to Tovera (Reply #29)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 10:25 AM

86. Because it was a Righty who made the post.

I got a hide yesterday for repeating to Nostrings what he had just said to me. Wasn't anything remotely near a TOS violation either.

There are very few juries that actually consider the TOS.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 11:14 AM

25. The richest 1% controls 40% of the wealth in this country.

Yet you think they should pay less taxes on that wealth and you should pay the same or more?

There must be a name for that kind of thinking....



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Response to Sullivan (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 11:18 AM

26. Thank GOD we don't tax wealth... the richest pay tge most taxes

 

The top 1% pay 39% of all taxes. You should thank them then get off your dead ass and join them instead of gollumong in your basement "we hatesses the tricksie richesses!"

Envy of the rich is just making excuses for a life badly lived.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 12:59 PM

28. It's a graduating scale. The more you have the more taxes you pay.

Feel free to send every cent you have to the rich for all I care. Just don't expect me to pay their way. And yours.

You're silly insults about me living in mommy's basement simply show that you have no real reply and that you have made a fool out of yourself on this subject.

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Response to Sullivan (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 06:40 PM

53. You seem to be reading challenged -- the rich pay 39% of all taxes

 

You ne'r do wells pay very little of the overall tax "revenue."

As for my assumption as to from where you post, anyone with 2 eyes who can read will get the same inference.


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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #53)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 01:24 AM

58. And you just can't get it through your head that the rich control most of the wealth

so they pay more in taxes. You seem to have a comprehension problem called RW media.

As for ne'r do wells I'm not the one following around rich people like a lost puppy hoping they'll drop a crumb for me someday. Or living off government benefits like many righties here do, while bashing that same government and other people who do the same.



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Response to Sullivan (Reply #58)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 07:44 AM

62. name one conservative here on welfare

 

and your envy is palpable.

I respect the rich for 2 reasons:

1. Most got that way via hard work - a concept that is foreign to gibmedat lefty
2. By many measures I am one. I got that way via 45+ years of hard work and frugality.

The rich own more and pay more. Sounds fair to me. Get off your dead ass and join us.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #62)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 07:55 PM

73. So you are retired and living off SS.

Figures.

But everybody else are takers sitting on their asses.


*yawn*

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Response to Sullivan (Reply #73)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 09:56 PM

80. If you've had it taken out of your paycheck all your life

Its not welfare

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Response to Sullivan (Reply #73)


Response to Sullivan (Reply #73)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 12:25 AM

83. SS is NOT welfare dumbass

 

It is a forced savings plan that is designed to give you your money back after you pay in.

If you are so ignorant as to call SS "welfare" you are too ignorant to be discussing policy with grown ups.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #83)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 10:15 AM

85. If a person who has paid taxes needs help like unemployment or AFDC to help them out

it's not welfare either, but that doesn't stop people like you from saying it is.

And what you paid in to SS is usually depleted within a few years.

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Response to Sullivan (Reply #85)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 01:25 PM

87. There is not a 1:1 between general taxes and welfare programs

 

There is a 1:1 between SS withholding and taxes.

You can't reverse yourself -- you called it welfare and you were 100% stupidly wrong.

And unemployment is not welfare either. It isn't even federal for the most part.

Typical lefty


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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #87)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 06:43 PM

88. You righties broad brush everyone who has needed assistance.

Not everyone has needed assistance, and if they have it isn't long term like SS. How could it ever be a 1:1?

For righties who trash every social program except for their own, it certainly can be considered welfare just for the hypocrisy alone.

And how about when the money you put into Social Security runs out? Is it out on the streets for you? Let me guess: it would be a different story because it's you.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #87)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 08:38 PM

90. Looks like you have a lot to say, then you self-delete. Not very brave.

Don't worry, you're a righty. You'll never get hidden here.

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Response to Sullivan (Reply #73)


Response to Sullivan (Reply #28)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 06:50 AM

59. So Sullivan, you sound like everybody should pay the same percentage of their income in taxes

That way it would be fair.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #59)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 07:46 AM

63. Sounds that way to me

 

About time the freeloaders pay their fair share

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #26)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 04:48 PM

44. Actually, ever hear of the Death Tax?

Thats taxing wealth

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Response to Hey Mikey (Reply #44)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 06:38 PM

52. I stand corrected -- the death tax is indeed taxing wealth

 

In general we don't have a tax on assets you own and you are alive, except when they generate revenue and you are taxed on that revenue.

YET.

lefty has proposed the envy tax more than once. I think the EU might have something like it, but I honestly don't know.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #3)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 08:05 AM

18. This need fixing.

"Corporations don't pay taxes" Perhaps it is time that they should. The owners of corporations are shielded from liability by the government entity that granted corporate status. They also receive business incentives and government protection from foreign competition. What are they doing for the public in return?
We always hear that if the corporations were to pay taxes that they would just pass that expense along to their customers. The prices that are charged are based on what the market will bear. If the price were to be marked up too much the customer would just purchase elsewhere or find a cheaper substitute. Raising prices because of tax expense would be nothing more than a convenient excuse for business to try to increase the price. We have seen price increases because of "excessive fuel costs". When the price of fuel came down, the retail prices of the products and services did not fall. We would see the same tactic used if the corporations were to start paying taxes.

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Response to beemerphill (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 08:28 AM

19. "The owners of corporations are shielded from liability by the government entity that granted

corporate status."

How?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #19)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 04:19 PM

32. Have you not been reading about our President?

His corporations have declared bankruptcy several times and he has never had to pay any of the people who got stiffed. That "inc" after the corporations' name shielded him from any kind of personal liability. That IS the reason that people starting a business form a corporation you know.

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Response to beemerphill (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 09:59 PM

37. That is not true

There are two kinds of bankruptcies, chapter 7 and chapter 11. Of the 515 companies Trump has owned, he filed chapter 11 on 6 of them.

In a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, the company is liquidated and the assets sold off to pay creditors. None of Trump’s bankruptcies were Chapter 7's.

Bankruptcy Is Not Synonymous with Failure

Although a corporate bankruptcy filing often indicates that a business is in a perilous financial condition, it doesn’t necessarily sound the death knell for that business. The provisions of Chapter 11 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code allow businesses to find ways to reduce their debt and restructure their operations without having to be shut down and liquidated to satisfy debts — instead of closing their doors, businesses can stay open, pay their employees, and take in revenue while developing a budget and a repayment plan for creditors (subject to the approval of the bankruptcy court).

Many of the United States’ largest and most prominent businesses have filed for (and emerged from) Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection one or more times, including General Motors, Charter Communications, Delta Air Lines, Kmart, Macy’s, and the Texas Rangers baseball team.

Trump-controlled businesses have sought bankruptcy protection several times after those entities — nearly all of them casino properties — were several hundreds of millions of dollars or more in debt (although the exact number of bankruptcies tied to Trump is debatable, as his spokespeople routinely disclaim that “many of the filings occurred when Trump was no longer involved in the businesses”):

#1) Trump Taj Mahal (1991): The Trump Taj Mahal casino in Atlantic City opened in 1990, with Trump financing the completion of its construction with $675 million in junk bonds at 14% interest. By the following year the casino itself was in debt to the tune of $3 billion, while Trump himself owed some $900 million in personal liabilities.

In order to keep the Taj Mahal afloat, Trump struck a deal with his lenders in which he gave up half his ownership share and equity in the casino, sold his Trump Shuttle airline and his Trump Princess 220-foot yacht, and agreed to a bank-set limit on his personal spending in exchange for a lower interest rate and additional time to make his loan payments.

#2 and #3) Trump’s Castle and Trump Plaza Casinos (1992): Less than a year after the Taj Mahal bankruptcy Trump filed for Chapter 11 protection again for two more Atlantic City hotel-casinos, the Trump Plaza and Trump’s Castle, over their inability to make principal and interest payments on bonds. The Plaza ($550 million in debt) and the Castle ($338 million in debt) were competing against each other, as well as against the Taj Mahal, and Trump gave up a 50% share in exchange for more favorable terms on the debts.

#4) Trump Plaza Hotel (1992): Donald Trump filed for bankruptcy protection a third time in 1992 over the Trump Plaza Hotel on New York’s famous Fifth Avenue, overlooking Central Park in midtown Manhattan. Once again, Trump gave up a 49% stake in the property to secure more favorable terms from lenders on the luxury hotel’s debt of more than $550 million.

#5) Trump Hotels and Casinos Resorts (2004): In 1995, Donald Trump established Trump Hotels and Casino Resorts as a publicly traded company, an entity that eventually consolidated his three Atlantic City casinos (Trump Taj Mahal, Trump Castle, and Trump Plaza), along with other properties, under one company. In 2004, Trump sought Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection for the company, with filings listing about $1.8 billion in debt. Yet again, Trump’s ownership in the business was reduced, from 47% to 27%, in order to obtain more favorable terms from lenders.

#6) Trump Entertainment Resorts (2009): After its 2004 bankruptcy, Trump Hotels and Casino Resorts was renamed Trump Entertainment Resorts (TER), and that latter entity went Chapter 11 in 2009 with a debt of $1.2 billion. Trump fought with his board of directors over how to restructure the company and ended up reducing his ownership share of the business once again (to 10%) and resigning as chairman of the board.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/08/01/donald-trumps-bankruptcies/

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Response to oflguy (Reply #37)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 04:23 PM

42. Thanks for posting the info.

The numbers in your post will help me explain what I am trying to say. Trump invested some of his own money in each of these ventures. He was not the sole investor, there were others. When a person, even Trump, invests in a business venture there is always a chance of losing that money. The money that he invested is not protected by the incorporation. You will notice that there is also money from loans in these corporations. If the corporation goes belly up Trump will lose his own investment, he will not, however, be on the hook for those loans. The lenders can go after the corporation, but they can not go after the owners of that corporation (unless there was fraud). That is how corporate law protects the owners. The investors and owners do not have to repay the debt incurred by the corporation. Their liability is limited. This is the main reason that people form corporations. To limit their liability. In Trumps case, he cut deals to keep the businesses running. He probably did this so that he would not lose all the money that he had already invested. Had the businesses gone under, he, and the other investors would have lost all of their investments.
We are not sure if this is all of the bankruptcies that he had or if there were more. He is very secretive about his businesses.

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Response to beemerphill (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 08:31 AM

20. So beemerphill, are you in favor of corporations losing money?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #20)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 04:11 PM

30. NO

So oflguy, are you in favor of the workers who actually produce the products paying taxes but the corporation collecting the profits not paying any taxes?

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Response to beemerphill (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 10:01 PM

38. Corporations never pay taxes

The people that buy its products pay them since the taxes are built into the prices.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #38)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 08:36 PM

89. Oh really.

So you think some bean-counters get together, add up the various costs required to produce a product plus some level of pre-tax profit, and finish by adding income taxes to determine the asking price for their product/service?

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #89)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 11:04 PM

91. Very good

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Response to oflguy (Reply #91)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 11:12 PM

93. Actually, I was in the process of making a minor correction to my post when you responded.

I have a feeling this will have no effect on your response.

"So you think some bean-counters get together, add up the various costs required to produce a product, plus after-tax profit plus income taxes to determine the asking price for their product/service"?

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #93)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 11:13 PM

94. That's how I do it

You know a better way?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #94)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 11:18 PM

95. I really don't know where to start. You're not that familiar with

how a free market works, are you.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #95)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 11:20 PM

96. I hope I know by now

Especially since I have been the CEO of my own company for over 40 years

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Response to oflguy (Reply #96)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 11:26 PM

97. My handyman is the CEO of his own company of one.

A really nIce guy, but he hasn't a clue about the financial underpinnings of a much larger company.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #97)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 11:27 PM

98. and you do?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #98)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 11:35 PM

99. Obviously far more than you.



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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #99)

Sat Dec 29, 2018, 11:41 PM

100. Why not educate us all then?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #100)

Sun Dec 30, 2018, 07:45 AM

101. Doo?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #98)

Wed Jan 2, 2019, 02:27 PM

102. In the main, the open market sets the price of goods and services.

Said market couldn't care less about a vendors cost of production / profitability / taxes.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #102)

Wed Jan 2, 2019, 05:26 PM

103. Try operating at a loss and see how many years you stay in business

Last edited Wed Jan 2, 2019, 06:15 PM - Edit history (1)

All because "the Market" says you have to sell your products at a certain price.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #103)

Thu Jan 3, 2019, 01:22 PM

104. I have no idea where you're going with this. You started out by

saying that setting a price for one's product is a function of adding together the various cost components of the product plus taxes plus after tax profit. Although one certainly needs to know the upper and lower estimates of the cost to produce a product, as I said this makes no difference to the market.

Perhaps this 'company' should have done more research into the market before entering it?

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #104)

Thu Jan 3, 2019, 01:32 PM

105. Da "market" consists of everybody selling the same product with, hopefully, similar expenses

all setting their prices the same way. Each merchant struggles to keep expenses down in order to be competitive.

Since you forgot, this discussion arose from my statement that corporations do not pay taxes - customers do.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #105)

Thu Jan 3, 2019, 02:37 PM

106. I didn't forget. What I've discovered on this forum is that

it's best to cover one topic at a time, otherwise far too often the 'discussion' ends up going off on a tangent.

You said that "taxes are built into the prices", and that companies determine pricing by adding up various costs.

I said the market determines pricing, which may or may not conform with the individual company's costs. And costs change over time as well, suppliers for example can raise prices. Also the number of units sold may differ from the original estimate, which means if they fall short not only will total sales decrease but the cost per unit at least over the short term will increase as well.

And merchants struggling etc. has nothing to do with how companies determine the price of their product.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #106)

Thu Jan 3, 2019, 05:03 PM

107. I'm curious. What do you do for a living?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #107)

Fri Jan 4, 2019, 02:22 PM

108. Why?

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #108)

Fri Jan 4, 2019, 02:27 PM

109. Just curious what a self-proclaimed expert does for a living

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Response to oflguy (Reply #109)

Fri Jan 4, 2019, 04:47 PM

110. Sorry, I don't share that info, although I do have a background

in finance. And where did I claim to be an expert?

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #110)

Fri Jan 4, 2019, 08:13 PM

111. One of those loan shark places?

"I got my check the SAME DAY!"

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Response to oflguy (Reply #111)

Fri Jan 4, 2019, 09:36 PM

112. No, at the time a NYSE listed company in the top 100 by market cap.

But I'm really glad you got that check! Hopefully that was long ago and you've since learned that borrowing at usurious rates is often not the best route to head down.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #112)

Fri Jan 4, 2019, 09:40 PM

113. They hire janitors

So I'm not impressed.

Thank goodness you don't price anything

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Response to oflguy (Reply #113)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 02:06 PM

114. I just checked my bucket list and guess what, impressing you wasn't on it.

So tell me Mr. CEO, large corporations typically have more than one brand, each containing multiple product lines. So let's say that within Brand A are 20 products. You put forth the notion that companies add taxes to the cost of their product to reach a price, how is this accomplished when the production cost and the number of units produced for each varies?

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #114)

Mon Jan 14, 2019, 06:36 PM

115. They don't just add taxes, silly, they add ALL their expenses.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #115)

Tue Jan 15, 2019, 03:03 PM

116. We've covered this ground already, you agreed with the following...

"So you think some bean-counters get together, add up the various costs required to produce a product, plus after-tax profit plus income taxes to determine the asking price for their product/service"?

Regardless, what do you do when your computed price for a price elastic product comes in at $6.24 when the rest of your competitors prices are in the $5.75 to $5.95 range?

And how do you know the amount of units you're going to sell in the future? What if your product has a high percentage of fixed to variable costs and you fall short on sales, do you understand the effect of this on the bottom line? Do you then compound this by raising your prices?

What about a situation where one of your products has little competition and the market is willing to pay 20% more than your computed price, do you forgo that extra contribution?

Prices should be determined by how much your buyers are willing to pay, which is a function of the amount of perceived value they get for your product. Their willingness to purchase has nothing to do with your costs.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #106)

Fri Feb 1, 2019, 06:25 PM

118. Its not complicated

I'll say it again.

Da "market" consists of everybody, collectively, selling the same product with, hopefully, similar expenses,

all setting their prices the same way. Each merchant struggles to keep expenses down in order to be competitive.


If you cannot hold down expenses, you simply go out of business because customers will always look for the lowest price unless there are other factors, like convivence, or superior quality, that keeps them coming.

I'm curious. What do you think is a good net profit? Do you think everybody makes that?

What is YOUR definition of "the market?"

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Response to oflguy (Reply #118)

Fri Feb 1, 2019, 06:54 PM

119. I was responding to your statement that "corporations do not pay taxes - customers do".

By and large, customers are not the ones who 'pay' the corporate taxes, it's shareholders and to a lesser extent the workers.

"Since you forgot, this discussion arose from my statement that corporations do not pay taxes - customers do".

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #119)

Fri Feb 1, 2019, 07:26 PM

120. What if there are no shareholders?

Who would you send the bill to?

What would you consider a good profit margin?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #120)

Fri Feb 1, 2019, 09:50 PM

121. Look, you didn't respond to my post #116 so I dropped it,

but if you want to go back to that 'other' discussion let's do it later.

YOU have made the following statements -

"Corporations don't pay taxes, silly, you do when you buy from them".

"Corporations never pay taxes. The people that buy its products pay them since the taxes are built into the prices".

"Since you forgot, this discussion arose from my statement that corporations do not pay taxes - customers do".

So your question of "What if there are no shareholders? Who would you send the bill to?" makes no sense. The VAST majority of for profit corporations, which are the ones we're talking about, have shareholders. Do you not realize that?



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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #121)

Sat Feb 2, 2019, 09:38 AM

122. You could not be more wrong

The VAST majority of corporations do NOT have stockholders

What do you do for a living?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #122)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 04:25 PM

123. Do tell.

If you don't mind, could you provide some support for your statement? You know, some examples of for profit corporations with no shareholders, and how most are in fact of this type.

Thanks in advance!

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #123)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 04:46 PM

124. I don't know who you think you are kidding

or what you want everybody in the forum to think you are, but you are certainly not fooling me.

With every post, you prove you know even less about businesses and corporations, in addition to business accounting. Who you think you are impressing and why you want to do that is not in the least my concern. I suggest you try your foolishness on someone else.


Anybody that suggests for one second that the vast majority of corporations are not mom and pop operations or even one man operations just makes me laugh.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #118)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 05:29 PM

125. There seems to be a lot of over-simplification going on in this exchange

"Da "market" consists of everybody, collectively, selling the same product with, hopefully, similar expenses, all setting their prices the same way."

Great example of what I mean, "everybody, collectively, selling the same product with, hopefully, similar expenses"

Way too simplistic.

Some competing in the market may be relying more heavily on outsourced component parts and doing more of the final assembly work while others rely more on in-house production for component parts and final assembly.
Vastly different cost structures with vastly different risks and requirements.
Additionally SG&A and R&D costs can vary widely from company to company.

Part two:
"all setting their prices the same way."
Again too simplistic.
At any given time you may have a company intentionally selling at lower than ideal profit margins in an attempt to break into a new market or gain new customers or larger market share. They may have made a calculated assessment that they can "afford" to cut profit margins for a given period of time, months or even years, in a deliberate attempt to weaken their competitors and gain market share. So even if cost structures are very similar you can and do have companies selling at lower profit margins for a variety of reasons.This is particularly true of privately held companies that don't have share holders to answer to.

Even if you can hold your costs down there often is someone out there that is willing to take a smaller profit to gain business.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #105)

Fri Feb 1, 2019, 03:39 PM

117. OK, then you're wrong on this topic as well.

The majority of corporate income taxes are paid by shareholders, with workers paying most of the balance.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #117)

Mon Feb 4, 2019, 08:43 PM

126. How?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #126)

Tue Feb 5, 2019, 07:57 AM

127. Curious about your thoughts on what I posted to you.

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Response to Independent.mind (Reply #127)

Tue Feb 5, 2019, 08:25 AM

128. No problem but first I want Zap to explain how

the majority of corporate income taxes are paid by shareholders, with workers paying most of the balance, even though most corporations do not have (public) shareholders, and some do not even have employees.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #128)

Tue Feb 5, 2019, 03:04 PM

129. A corporation is a legal entity that has standing to sue and to be sued.

I'm well aware that the majority of corporations are small, this does NOT take away from the fact that the vast majority of for profit corporations have at least one shareholder, almost by definition.

Black's Law Dictionary defines a corporation as "an association of shareholders (or even a single shareholder) created under law and regarded as an artificial person by courts, "having a legal entity entirely separate and distinct from the individuals who compose it, with the capacity of continuous existence or succession, and having the capacity of such legal entity, of taking, holding and conveying property, suing and being sued, and execising such other powers as may be conferred on it by law, just as a natural person may."


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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #129)

Tue Feb 5, 2019, 04:27 PM

130. You aren't doing yourself any favors.

Most don't have any shares issued and therefore no share holders. You actually have to have shares of stock to be a shareholder.

As far as it goes, no, shareholders do not pay corporate taxes, and the corporation passes on 100% of it's tax obligations to it's customers. It's simple accounting. Once a desired profit is decided on, taxes are looked at as a cost of business and passed on, in whole, to the customer. If the cost of government's tax policy is too high, then that economic activity doesn't happen, and the government receives 100% of zero.

It's really simple. In my LLC, I am the proverbial CEO, chief bottle-washer, and most things in between, I have an accountant, another LLC, that specializes in ways to structure costs to minimize the expense of taxes. It is in my interest to keep my official income at nearly zero. My expected taxes are all priced into my service and product fees. My customer pays, not my business.

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Response to smoke check (Reply #130)

Tue Feb 5, 2019, 07:44 PM

131. This whole shareholders issue is not relevant, at least to me, as to

the two overall topics of discussion raised in this thread. I really don't want to get into a discussion as to whether or not a Limited Liability Company is or is not a corporation, I say it's at best a hybrid but I really don't care at this point.

This started out as 'corporations don't pay taxes, silly, you do when you buy from them' along with 'The people that buy its products pay them since the taxes are built into the prices'.

My focus has been on businesses who are national/international in scope with significant sales and numbers of employees along with current information regarding the effect on the monetary value of corporate and other types of capital. There are too many 'Joe the Plumber LLCs' out there, each with their own stories, to study.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #131)

Tue Feb 5, 2019, 08:26 PM

133. I think what you are getting at is corporations that are "public."

Doesn't matter. Taxes are built into their prices. Google a profit and loss statement. You will see that taxes are just another expense. ALL expenses are paid for by the customer. Payroll is another expense and affects the amount of profit no differently than taxes or the light bill.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #131)

Wed Feb 6, 2019, 12:37 AM

136. They do the same thing.

The only difference is they have entire in-house accounting departments and entire in-house legal departments. I have one customer that has a tool that is a somewhat regularly needed tool. They have shipped that tool so many times between their sites that the costs they have paid in shipping is probably thousands of times what the tool costs and would cost for them to buy one for every one of their sites. Care to guess why?

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Response to smoke check (Reply #136)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 09:05 PM

141. Probably because the customer is paying for all the shipping charges on an itemized invoice

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Response to oflguy (Reply #141)

Sun Feb 10, 2019, 01:29 AM

146. Pretty much exactly that.

Every time they ship this tool, it becomes another tax write off. There are probably tens of thousands of these sorts of laws on the books.

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Response to smoke check (Reply #146)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 10:33 AM

147. Can you explain what a tax write off is? (for a business)

And how that shipping expense differs from any other expense, like the utility bill?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #147)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 11:05 AM

148. A tax write off, being broad here, is any costs related to business...

...and some charitable donations.

Though the law may differ, or a business might choose how to leverage a law to it's benefit. For example, a publisher making paper books will write off the cost of the paper as a business expense, while the printing machine used will likely be listed as a durable good and the deductions for it will take place over a number of years.

The same thing goes for items like mileage. There is a $0.50 per mile deduction for work related expenses.

In a better answer to your question, there was some law on the books that allowed businesses to deduct the costs of shipping tools. It was allowing them a larger write off every year than buying tools for each of their 6 sites would be, even if they used them as durable goods. I frequently use the same deduction as I have to ship all of my material and tools to a customer site prior to work. It can be quite a hefty savings. The utility bill is just another business expense.

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Response to smoke check (Reply #148)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 05:24 PM

149. Are you in business?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #149)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 01:48 AM

154. Yes, but I am not an accountant.

As I said, I have an accountant, a guy recommended to me through several other contacts, most of whom use him as their accountant. The guy hates taxes. I structure around what he says. He is a certified accountant, he isn't cheap but he saves his clients money. You won't find him in a phone book, he doesn't need to advertise.

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Response to smoke check (Reply #154)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 11:16 AM

156. Then I'm sure you are aware that the mileage for a car is a personal tax issue, not business

All expenses for company cars are business expenses, including gas, insurance, repairs, etc.

If a company sells a tool, shipping costs are always an expense. It is up to the seller to add the cost of shipping to the selling price as an itemized charge, or simply include the cost in the selling price.


Recently, a neighbor of mine referred to a cost of a business as a "Tax Writeoff," as if to imply it was "free" to his business, or didn't "cost" him anything. This is a pet peeve of mine. Companies pay taxes on their income. ANY and EVERY legitimate expense the company incurrs in the course of doing business is an expense that costs the company. NOTHING is free (almost).

The only exception to this is the rare Tax Credit. For instance, the government has choosen a few instances, like solar and wind investments, to allow the purchaser to take a credit of a designated percentage of the cost as a deduction to their tax liability. Another type of tax credit is that which a government, such as a state, allows a business for coming to their state. These cases, however, are rare. It is an example of the government choosing which industries they favor. In this case, we can certainly consider the tax credit as a "free" gift from the government. Some times this creates an unfair advantage for one business over another and certainly is an example of government intervention.

Another use of the word "writeoff" is the amount of depreciation calculated after the purchase of a fixed asset like a car. The government does not allow you to count the entire purchase price of the car in the year it was purchased. Only a percentage of the purchase price can be counted as an expense each year, until the entire cost of the car has been depreciated. Certainly, the car was not free, or paid for by the government like some people assume, since the term "writeoff" is used during the depreciation period.

I cringe whenever I hear an uneducated person say, "Oh, he doesn't care. It's just a tax writeoff."

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #129)

Tue Feb 5, 2019, 07:58 PM

132. You are stalling. Please explain yourself when you say

"The majority of corporate income taxes are paid by shareholders, with workers paying most of the balance."

How?

Just so you know EVERY corporation has shareholders, even if it is a mom and pop operation with each owning 1/2 of the business (in shares). Taxes are just another expense, no different from the light bill, rent, or payroll.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #132)

Tue Feb 5, 2019, 08:58 PM

134. This says it all...

ofl - Fri Feb 1, 2019, 04:26 PM
120. What if there are no shareholders? Who would you send the bill to?

ZDD - Fri Feb 1, 2019, 06:50 PM
121. The VAST majority of for profit corporations, which are the ones we're talking about, have shareholders. Do you not realize that?

ofl - Sat Feb 2, 2019, 06:38 AM
122. You could not be more wrong. The VAST majority of corporations do NOT have stockholders.

ofl - Tue Feb 5, 2019, 04:58 PM
132. Just so you know EVERY corporation has shareholders, even if it is a mom and pop operation with each owning 1/2 of the business (in shares).




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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #134)

Tue Feb 5, 2019, 09:13 PM

135. Care to explain yourself?

For the 5th or 6th time?

I know what you are referring to. You mean public shareholders. You are still wrong. They do not pay the taxes, nor do the employees.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #135)

Wed Feb 6, 2019, 02:58 PM

137. First answer me this.

You initially made the claim that...

(1) the VAST majority of corporations do NOT have stockholders,
(2) I then state that the VAST majority of for profits do,
(3) then you come along with "Just so you know EVERY corporation has shareholders, even if it is a mom and pop operation with each owning 1/2 of the business (in shares)".

First of all it should be clear that I knew this, after all I brought it up first. So why not just state you were wrong and move on? And by the way, the reason I specified 'for profit' corporations is that non-profits are not owned by private individuals, thus no shareholders.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #137)

Wed Feb 6, 2019, 08:25 PM

138. public stockholders is what you meant and what I figured you meant

You can't explain how public stockholders and employees pay the taxes because they don't.

Taxes are just another expense, nothing special.

I hate to burst your bubble. You advocate for higher taxes for corporations because you think it punishes them. In truth, it punishes the customers because they pay corporate taxes when they buy its products.

Liberals always consider taxes punishment. Revenue never enters their minds when they advocate raising them.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #138)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 02:24 PM

139. The choice on who bears the economic burden and to what degree

comes down to three - the shareholders, the workers, or the customers. We can rule out the customer for the most part as companies don't have much power when it comes to raising prices to pay for taxes, they're already charging what they consider to be the maximum price.

Until recently, most economists placed the burden entirely on the shareholders, as the stock price or dividends are lower than they would be without the taxes. In the last several decades some have allocated a portion of the burden to the workers as capital investment has flowed to other countries where taxes and wages are lower.

Your last two sentences are mere drivel. You have no clue as to my position on either one.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #139)

Thu Feb 7, 2019, 08:54 PM

140. Which financial report do you think taxes show up in?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #140)

Fri Feb 8, 2019, 09:02 PM

142. Why don't you try instead to step it up a notch or two.

Any comments on my post without the condescension?

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #142)

Fri Feb 8, 2019, 09:27 PM

143. I knew you didn't know

Not quite the financial guru you claim to be, are you?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #143)

Fri Feb 8, 2019, 10:04 PM

144. I have to say, you're a kick!

Still, better than having to get back to producing our first ever household budget.

Ouch!

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #144)

Sat Feb 9, 2019, 07:48 AM

145. Try Google

May as well take a stab at it

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Response to oflguy (Reply #145)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 05:46 PM

150. No need, Ive been involved in budgets in one way or another going back 35+ years.

Ten or so as V.P. Finance of a manufacturing company with 160 employees, a stint in the finance department of a NYSE company, and a number of years working in the field of mid-level mergers and acquisitions, where among other things I tore apart, re-arranged and put back together financial statements.

All to say that your little 4th grade level ‘gotcha question’ of “Which financial report do you think taxes show up in?” et al is risible at best.

Your concept (a) that companies ‘build’ income taxes into their price via some formula and thus (b) those who purchase said products are in effect “paying” the tax is simple-minded at best. First of all, for (a) if you're referring to cost-based pricing this might work for a small company but for most this is a bygone method with a lot of issues.

As for (b) there is nothing about this that allows for analysis as to what happens when the corporate tax rate changes.

Those who study this are addressing (which I mentioned in post 139) the ECONOMIC impact of tax policy, not someone who thinks when they purchase a product they're actually paying a portion of some company's federal income tax.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #150)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 06:05 PM

151. You are right, it IS a 4th grade level question

One which you keep evading.

And I never said a word about "formulas."

If you think you are not paying for a company's taxes when you purchase their product, it is you that needs a fourth grade level course in finance.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #151)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 06:40 PM

152. There's nothing to evade, it's a simple question with a simple answer.

I would not even think of asking this from you as I assume you know, even though it's quite clear that you're way out of your league on this topic.

But if this resolves some huge issue with you then by all means, it would be the Income statement.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #152)

Mon Feb 11, 2019, 06:52 PM

153. OUTSTANDING

Now, how would you journalize a tax payment?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #153)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 08:19 AM

157. What is the accounting basis?

That is a critical question is it not?

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Response to Independent.mind (Reply #157)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 09:25 AM

159. use cash

Remember me? I like to keep it simple.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #159)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 09:51 AM

161. I am not in your back and forth with ZDD, just seemed like an open question with an answer

that depended on the basis.

In your simple world how do you price your products knowing that there are a number of variables that can impact your costs and your competitions costs positively or negatively?

I may be veering off topic here but your statements seemed very simplistic and not based in the real world:

Da "market" consists of everybody, collectively, selling the same product with, hopefully, similar expenses, all setting their prices the same way. Each merchant struggles to keep expenses down in order to be competitive."

"If you cannot hold down expenses, you simply go out of business because customers will always look for the lowest price unless there are other factors, like convivence, or superior quality, that keeps them coming."


How do you estimate the differences between your company and your competition in areas like SG&A and R&D costs?

There are a number of variables that can have a significant impact on the final pricing and profitability.

Are we talking about products or services as the income vehicle?
How broad or narrow is the market?
Is the market stable, is it expanding or contracting?
How strong or weak is your biggest competitor?
How much reinvestment of capitol is required to remain competitive?
What skill level is required for employees?
If specific skills are required are they in high demand indicating you will have to work to retain them?




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Response to Independent.mind (Reply #161)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 07:25 PM

162. You want a full-fledged course?

I charge for that.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #162)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 07:30 PM

163. Nope Im good

Decades of experience running businesses

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Response to oflguy (Reply #162)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 07:31 PM

164. You indicated you would respond and never did

It’s all good

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Response to Independent.mind (Reply #164)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 07:34 PM

165. I responded

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Response to oflguy (Reply #165)

Thu Feb 14, 2019, 08:07 AM

166. Post number of your response, I am not seeing it.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #162)

Mon Feb 18, 2019, 11:36 PM

168. Translation...

I give up. Everyone can see that I can't compete one-on-one with Independent.mind.

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Response to Independent.mind (Reply #161)

Wed Feb 20, 2019, 02:08 PM

183. Very well thought out, all good questions pertinent to the discussion.

You obviously have a far greater understanding of the real-world business climate than the one who offered you a 'full-fledged course', and for a fee no less.

I wonder what a CEO like him charges for such, it would be fascinating to see the course content!

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #183)

Wed Feb 20, 2019, 02:23 PM

184. I have been managing small businesses with annual sales north of $100mil for decades

Both retail and manufacturing.

I have to write budgets, capex plans every year

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Response to oflguy (Reply #151)

Mon Feb 18, 2019, 05:59 PM

167. And I never said a word about 'formulas'.

ZDD - So you think some bean-counters get together, add up the various costs required to produce a product, plus after-tax profit plus income taxes to determine the asking price for their product/service?

YOU - That's how I do it. You know a better way?

I doubt few would quibble about referring to the above as a 'formula'.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #167)

Mon Feb 18, 2019, 11:42 PM

169. Still waiting for you to tell us how you journalize tax payments, Zap

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Response to oflguy (Reply #169)

Mon Feb 18, 2019, 11:47 PM

170. I'm curious as to why this is for some reason important to you.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #170)

Tue Feb 19, 2019, 12:00 AM

171. I'm sure we all want you to explain to us how taxes are paid by board members and employees

Curiosity is burning a hole in my soul.


How do you journalize the transaction?


Surely you can explain it to us novices.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #171)

Tue Feb 19, 2019, 12:10 AM

172. You asked this of me, only fair at this point for me to return the favor

I'm curious. What do you do for a living?

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #172)

Tue Feb 19, 2019, 12:16 AM

173. I am the founder, owner and CEO of my own Corporation

Care to tell us how you journalize a tax payment?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #173)

Tue Feb 19, 2019, 12:37 AM

174. Blah blah blah.

For $80 in some states one can file articles of incorporation and call themselves a CEO.

Please put forth an argument that this automatically confers upon one some mystical ability to understand even the basics of finance/economics.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #174)

Tue Feb 19, 2019, 12:39 AM

175. You are stalling

You do know what journalize a transaction means, right?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #175)

Tue Feb 19, 2019, 12:45 AM

176. Let me guess, someone gave you Quickbooks

as a Christmas present and now you think you're somehow an expert in all things accounting?

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #176)

Tue Feb 19, 2019, 12:48 AM

177. I take that to mean you have no idea what journalize a transaction means

Its a very simple question.

If you knew what you were talking about you would not have made such a silly statement like board members and employees pay all taxes.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #177)

Tue Feb 19, 2019, 12:58 AM

178. Simple questions have simple answers. I choose to set my sights higher.

Perhaps you should aspire to this as well?

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #178)

Tue Feb 19, 2019, 01:00 AM

179. yeah?



Here is some advice.

Don't go around making silly statements and nobody will call you out by asking you to explain it in real terms, like an accounting transaction.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #179)

Tue Feb 19, 2019, 01:05 AM

180. Typical response. You can't compete with the great

Zappa Dappa Doo so you resort to emojis.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #180)

Tue Feb 19, 2019, 08:54 AM

181. Good to know there is a competition going on

When you answer the question, you might win. Until then, you're just in the running.

I'm DYING to see your answer.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #181)

Tue Feb 19, 2019, 04:15 PM

182. I'm through playing your silly games. If someone claims to

have been an electrician for 35 years I doubt anyone excluding you would ask them which wire was larger, 12 guage or 10 guage. Especially when it has no bearing at all on the discussion or lack thereof at hand.

The issue again, and read it carefully in an attempt to understand why ecomonists study this, is as I stated in post 139, i.e.

"The choice on who bears the economic burden and to what degree comes down to three - the shareholders, the workers, or the customers".

The issue is about the ECONOMIC impact of corporate taxes, which has nothing to do with one's ability to make a journal entry.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #128)

Tue Feb 12, 2019, 10:11 AM

155. I noticed you never addressed my post.

Last edited Tue Feb 12, 2019, 11:36 AM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Independent.mind (Reply #155)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 09:22 AM

158. You want to make it complicated?

Be my guest

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Response to oflguy (Reply #38)


Response to beemerphill (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 10:54 AM

24. none of that matters

 

Taxes on corporations are just passed along to the consumer.

You can invent rhe most draconian plan imaginable, like taxing the corporate entity on its profits and THEN taxing the individual owners for THEIR part of those profits again (I know, pretty unimaginable). It would not matter as the corporation would just raise prices to compensate. Since most corporatons in a sector are about the same size they all get hit the same so the prices rise in unison.

People who don't understand this just don't understand what happens in the real world.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 04:42 PM

33. A question for you.

freedumb2003, you said, "Taxes on corporations are just passed along to the consumer." If this is indeed true, why did we not see decreases in prices when the corporations got their taxes cut last year? If they pass on the taxes do they not pass on the saving from tax cuts? Is it possible that they just kept the savings from the cuts and failed to pass it along to the consumer?

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Response to beemerphill (Reply #33)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 08:49 PM

35. Inflation always happens. I you have a formula to separate inflation from corp decisions...

 

...please share it.

The fact that the inflation has been really low is a sign that corporations have slowed or reversed prices purely based on taxes.

And there were NUMEROUS documented cases where corporations chose to pass the tax savings to their employees. I am OK with that if I am paying X for a product and it stays at X.

Of course lefty just pretends to care about the employees since they are the hoi polloi -- just drones to be used to advance lefty's anti-USA agenda.


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Response to beemerphill (Reply #33)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 10:08 PM

39. We have already witnessed where corporations have passed some of the savings on to employees

As far as price reductions, that will work itself out over time. It could result in actual price reductions, or it could be reflected in no price increases as other expenses increase.

Since the tax reductions are universal, across the board, competition between companies will assure us that products will cost relatively less in the future, including inflation.

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Response to beemerphill (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 07:55 AM

40. "why did we not see decreases in prices when the corporations got their taxes cut last year?"

We did in some sectors. We also saw wage increases, bonuses and reinvestment.

Corporate executives do not take money and stuff it in mattresses.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #40)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 04:30 PM

43. We did see some.

Some corporations did indeed pass some of their tax savings on to their employees and some did invest it in an expansion of the business. Some. Many however just used it to buy back stock and pay down debt. Some "trickle down" occurred, but only some.

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Response to beemerphill (Reply #43)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 06:57 AM

60. I think you are a bit confused phill

The stock buy-backs you are referring to were corporate stocks purchased by the corporations, not their CEOs for personal reasons.

When a company buys its own stock, it shows the executives of the company have faith in the business and want to invest in it. That is a good thing for the employees and the customers.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #60)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 09:02 AM

66. Sometimes I am

Sometimes I am confused. I do know that the CEOs and leaders of the corporations do not own the stock that is bought back. The corporation itself owns it. When I looked it up there were as many reasons and explanations of a stock buyback as there were experts. I think that the main reason is probably a combination of investing in itself (like you said), raising the value of their own stock, keeping more power in the hands of the company, rewarding the stockholders with the payments for the stock, and keeping the dividend payments lower in the future. (Fewer outstanding stocks equal fewer dividend checks.) All of these would provide minimal benefits for the corporations individually, but together could be significant. There is also the reason that the savings from the tax cuts must be invested lest it remains on the books to be taxed in the following year. I do know that many did use the tax savings for this reason. They must have had valid financial reasons.

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Response to beemerphill (Reply #18)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 12:50 PM

27. "What are they doing for the public in return? " Umm, maybe.. providing Jobs??

I read your post and you remind me of another economic genius I interacted with in the past here. Moneyshot.
And our current version of Krugman here...the sneaker.

I look forward to your future econ postings...wow.

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Response to Oldgeezer (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 04:14 PM

31. Thank You

"I look forward to your future econ postings...wow."

It is heartwarming to see that you appreciated my post and understand what I said. It is nice to find a kindred soul on the internet.

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Response to beemerphill (Reply #31)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 05:56 PM

34. Yep..that's it...wow/or Damn....holy crap

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Response to beemerphill (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 13, 2019, 09:27 AM

160. How would you fix it phill?

Just so you know, corporations do pay taxes and pass that expense along to their customers.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #3)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 05:46 PM

46. Corporations

sell for what the market will bear, regardless of their tax liabilities.

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Response to tikal (Reply #46)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 11:34 PM

56. Who told you that?

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Response to Salaam (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2018, 08:28 PM

6. more from faux news

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Response to rahtruelies (Reply #6)

Tue Dec 25, 2018, 08:30 PM

8. MAGA

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Response to Salaam (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 06:59 AM

61. Yes, yes, Trump IS making America great again and it is refreshing

Much to your disgust though.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #61)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 08:59 PM

74. LOL

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Response to Salaam (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2018, 08:48 PM

10. Msn is fake

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Response to Badsamm (Reply #10)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 05:47 PM

47. ...and the world is flat.

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Response to Salaam (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2018, 08:49 PM

11. ''increased the inequality of income''...LOL!!! That's as retarded as the ''livable wage'' BS...

...and WHO is stopping any low income earner from improving their own education/skill set???

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Response to quad489 (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 25, 2018, 08:55 PM

12. Aw, c'mon. Don't be so cruel.

Everybody should get at $40-50K a year just for breathing. And pay zero taxes of course.

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Response to foia (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 09:07 PM

36. Still waiting for lefties to define exactly how much $$$ per hour is this living wage......

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Response to quad489 (Reply #11)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 05:48 PM

48. Money?

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Response to tikal (Reply #48)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 07:20 PM

55. Explain......

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Response to Salaam (Original post)

Tue Dec 25, 2018, 09:00 PM

13. Lib fake news CBS. Lol.

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Response to Salaam (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 07:29 AM

17. Where in the constitution do you see income equality as a right?

Last edited Wed Dec 26, 2018, 09:45 AM - Edit history (1)

Reality is that life isn’t fair and you can’t tax your way into prosperity or equality.

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Response to DDKick (Reply #17)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 08:34 AM

21. Did you mean to say

"you can't tax your way into prosperity or equality?"

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Response to oflguy (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 09:46 AM

23. Yes, thank you

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Response to DDKick (Reply #17)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 05:52 PM

49. Where in the Constitution does it say

that vast income inequality is a right?

Reality is that life is as fair or as unfair as we levy taxes to make it that way.

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Response to tikal (Reply #49)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 11:37 PM

57. Thanks for verifying that liberals look upon taxes as punishment, not income

Last edited Fri Dec 28, 2018, 06:21 AM - Edit history (1)

We must punish the rich and reward the poor in order to achieve income equality......gotcha

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Response to oflguy (Reply #57)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 12:35 PM

67. It is revealing how rightists

believe that making the rich pay more in taxes than the poor is punishment.

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Response to tikal (Reply #67)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 12:49 PM

68. The rich do pay more

It is revealing that a Lefty admits that he is not about fair taxing, but rather seeks to punish people that have worked to earn more by unfair taxation.

Many poor pay NO taxes. Not only that, but they receive government money to sit on their asses.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #68)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 01:07 PM

70. Working class righties want all the benefits

of modern civil society but whine and consider themselves unfairly treated when required to help pay for it. This is because they emulate rich righties who think they're better than other people and deserving of special consideration for nothing more noteworthy than having money or working for a living. Working class righties worship money so much and admire the very rich so much that they are always happy to blame the poor while the rich pick their pockets. They are the suckers PT Barnum loved to fleece and Republicans still do.

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Response to tikal (Reply #70)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 09:31 PM

77. I have no problem helping pay for it.

I just want the lazy ass deadbeats to pitch in.

You know, those who think they're better than other people and deserving of special consideration.

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Response to tikal (Reply #49)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 07:55 AM

64. where in the Constitution does it say income EQUALITY is a right?

 

Your statement is a non sequituer.

The USC provides a framework for pursuit of happiness. Not equality of outcome.

Some pursue it harder. Many sit on their dead asses and envy those who work harder or smarter.

Which are you?

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #64)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 12:50 PM

69. The Constitution

does not address the matter of economic equality or inequality. Therefore, neither is a right, but both are a matter of civil and not constitutional law. Furthermore, the Constitution provides a framework for democratic governance and civil rights. It addresses "happiness" in no particular, allows for the suspension of liberty, the taking of private property, and even life when due process is used to do it. It even legitimizes taxation.

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Response to tikal (Reply #69)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 02:11 PM

71. Posting to the choir.

 

That was my point. Note I used the term "framewok" which the preamble addresses/establishes.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #64)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 09:37 PM

78. Equality of opportunity is all that can be guaranteed fairly

Some people take advantage of it by working hard. Others sit on their asses and throw it away.

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Response to Salaam (Original post)

Wed Dec 26, 2018, 08:39 AM

22. I understand your line of thinking Salami

Liberals look upon taxes as a means of punishment, not revenue.

They always have, always will.

Even though rich people pay the most taxes, for you, its still not enough. You think it still doesn't hurt enough.

Obama's father believed rich people should pay 100% in taxes. Jr. was a chip off the ole block. He would have done it if he could have.............er, until he realized he and all his co-harts were rich.

By the way, Salami, we're still waiting to hear from you how much you think Putin is paying Trump.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 05:57 PM

50. Taxes are the price we pay for civil society.

Liberals look at them as a means to an end. Conservatives think taxes are the government trying to steal some of their cookies. They never have and probably never will grasp the reality that without taxation there would be no civil society and no cookies for them to try and horde.

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Response to tikal (Reply #50)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 02:14 PM

72. That is ridiculous

 

Conservatives believe that government should do only those things government can do. Of course we need taxes for roads, military, law, infrastructure, etc.

We do NOT need money for a department of education, department of energy, endless welfare, endless useless programs, endless waste.

Conservatives believe the government that governs least governs best. And along with that comes taxation commensurate with RESULTS.

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Response to tikal (Reply #50)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 09:48 PM

79. Unfair and excessive taxes are the government trying to steal some of our cookies

You got it part right

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Response to Salaam (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 08:04 AM

41. People will know, one way or another, when returns are filed. You're premature.

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Response to Salaam (Original post)

Thu Dec 27, 2018, 06:07 PM

51. What we are seeing is that Lefty wants to tax corporations out of the country again and

impoverish the working class. 0bama was well on his way to do just that.

A nation of Lefty elites lording over starving slaves with no rights IS the agenda for Lefty. Lefty does not desire things like freedom and honor. Lefty wants tyranny. Destroying the economy is just part of the plan.

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Response to Salaam (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 08:02 AM

65. We will find out in a few more months

I am solidly in the middle class. So far I have seen a $107 per month increase in take home pay since the new tax laws came into effect. Once my returns are done for the year I will know if the bill was good for me.

I do not care one iota if the upper class or businesses got a bigger or smaller break than me. I don't need others to do poorly in order for me to be happy. You can keep your class warfare bullshit.

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Response to FreeWheelBurning (Reply #65)

Fri Dec 28, 2018, 09:02 PM

76. Sure thing.

Check in on that later.

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