Politicspolitics

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 01:39 PM

"Rounding up people is so inefficient. Go to the source of illegal immigration."

"Go to the illegal employer."

WTF? The source of illegal immigration is the fucking border. And ya don't have to "round 'em up". All you have to do is wait til they get in trouble. And the ones we really don't want here WILL get in trouble. Got arrested? Illegal? Here's a free trip home.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028692283

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Arrow 29 replies Author Time Post
Reply "Rounding up people is so inefficient. Go to the source of illegal immigration." (Original post)
JaimeBondoJr Feb 2017 OP
Boston Feb 2017 #1
frankt8242 Feb 2017 #6
Boston Feb 2017 #17
Sebastopolitan Feb 2017 #2
FreeWheelBurning Feb 2017 #4
TM999 Feb 2017 #12
OneLoudVoice Aug 2018 #22
TM999 Aug 2018 #23
OneLoudVoice Aug 2018 #24
TM999 Aug 2018 #25
OneLoudVoice Aug 2018 #26
TM999 Aug 2018 #27
OneLoudVoice Aug 2018 #28
TM999 Aug 2018 #29
Carl Feb 2017 #18
FreeWheelBurning Feb 2017 #3
Sebastopolitan Feb 2017 #13
FreeWheelBurning Feb 2017 #14
OneLoudVoice Aug 2018 #21
FORD Feb 2017 #5
EddieHaskell Feb 2017 #8
frankt8242 Feb 2017 #7
FreeWheelBurning Feb 2017 #9
Jake Feb 2017 #11
joannadufrane Feb 2017 #10
His Daughter Feb 2017 #15
joannadufrane Feb 2017 #16
liberalguy Feb 2017 #19
_eek Feb 2017 #20

Response to JaimeBondoJr (Original post)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 01:42 PM

1. Put the top 10 employers of illegals in each state in jail. nt.

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Response to Boston (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 01:47 PM

6. if you did THAT...

 

The rethugs would NEVER ever again win an election..!!!

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Response to frankt8242 (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 05:46 PM

17. Oh absolutely neither Repubs or Dems are blameless. Both want slave wage labor for their corporate

masters.

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Response to JaimeBondoJr (Original post)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 01:43 PM

2. It is just a bit odd that we don't hear a word about going after employers.

 

I wonder why that is.

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Response to Sebastopolitan (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 01:46 PM

4. I have to admit, it bothers me

I will know a politician is serious when it targets these employers.

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Response to Sebastopolitan (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 01:57 PM

12. Employers get in trouble all the time.

Here in Arizona, we had a case in just the last year or two of a popular local restaurant chain that was raided due to hiring illegals.

The bigger problem is that even if employers due their due diligence, they can not deal with fake ID's and stolen Soc Sec numbers. How will they police that? What methods are at their disposal?

In sanctuary states and cities, illegals get driver's licenses. OK, well that is 'legal'.

The woman who was deported here in Arizona that made the national news did that and then got a 'fake' social security number. It took a few years to track that down legally.

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Response to TM999 (Reply #12)

Sun Aug 26, 2018, 01:24 AM

22. Do they?

What trouble did they get into?

How much did it cost the restaurant chain?
How many of the employers went to jail for illegal hiring?

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Response to OneLoudVoice (Reply #22)

Sun Aug 26, 2018, 04:29 AM

23. The chain is gone.

They are out of business. The owners were arrested and ended up with heavy fines.

So yeah, in states that take this shit seriously, serious shit happens when you fuck up as they did.

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Response to TM999 (Reply #23)

Sun Aug 26, 2018, 05:30 AM

24. I find myself skeptical

I'd love the name of this closed chain so I can look it up, because I have literally never heard of an employer facing any real consequences. My vague recollection is that the max penalty was a 10k fine, which is a low risk bet when you can save far more by hiring illegally.

I did a quick lookup and the only instance that seemed similar was an old Obama era federal raid where the restaurant owners got nailed for cooking the books in regards to their illegal hiring practices. And a whole bunch of newer raids where the employees were arrested or ran off, but not the employers.

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Response to OneLoudVoice (Reply #24)

Sun Aug 26, 2018, 06:27 AM

25. It was during the Obama era

and on a Federal level, his DoJ dropped the charges because, you know, open borders.

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Response to TM999 (Reply #25)

Sun Aug 26, 2018, 07:23 PM

26. Then it was the one that I found. Which means that there was no substantial punishment

for illegal hiring.

The owners never faced prison time in connection to illegal hiring.

The owners never faced substantial fines in connection to illegal hiring.

Any substantial consequences they faced were for TAX EVASION. Not illegal hiring. The illegal hiring was a fine of $3000 per hire. Pennies compared to how much they saved by hiring illegally. The tax evasion fines probably stung, but the illegal hiring was insubstantial

And the restaurant is NOT gone. In fact, looked at from the outside, if someone didnt know about the raid, nothing about the course of their business looks odd. Arguably the raid was an embarrassment to the owners, but no more. Their business took a serious downturn.. before the raid, during the recession. They had to close up a lot of their 14 locations, dropping to only 2 locations.. And then the economy picked back up. And now they are back up to 5 restaurants, with a 6th about to open.

Thats pretty much the financial curve of a lot of hospitality businesses during that same time period.

Can you find any large employer who has faced real consequences for illegal hiring? Ive still yet to hear of a single one.

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Response to OneLoudVoice (Reply #26)

Mon Aug 27, 2018, 04:02 AM

27. As I said, the state wanted to do more

but were hamstrung by the Feds. Obama's DoJ refused to continue the case. As we are starting to see now under Trump, this type of thing is far less likely to occur.

No, the restaurant did close completely. It has re-opened under new management in Tucson only. It was not about the economy, it was about the raid and the number of illegals hired. And yes, tax evasion was a big part but so was labor.

At this point, no and that's why we need better enforcement not only of the labor but also the businesses that hire them. Arizona is at the forefront now with their strict adherence to the full E-Verify program so businesses here are not want to pull this kind of stunt under a Trump administration as they did under an Obama one.

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Response to TM999 (Reply #27)

Tue Aug 28, 2018, 02:21 AM

28. We need ANY effective enforcement against the businesses that hire illegally

I bet half the restaurants in border states have hired illegally.

The only thing less likely to occur is workers complaining to the feds about being treated poorly.

According to the owners, they hired illegals due to the drop in business that happened due to.. the economy. After being raided.. they couldn't afford to hire enough legal workers to keep providing the quality of food expected.

It may have closed up shop for a short time, but it never went away. Same restaurant, grown back. In fact, growing at almost exactly the same rate it had prior to the recession.

Their penalty for illegal hiring were minimal. If they hadn't been evading taxes, they wouldn't even have been arrested, And they would have shrugged off the whole thing without any serious consequences. And Trump nor Arpiao would have done any more than Obama. (Prove me wrong. Find where either of them have actually brought serious penalties on employers for illegal hiring)

Last I heard there were some 300k undocumented folks living in Arizona alone. I'm sure they are all sitting home, starving, not working, right? Not working. I mean, you'd guarantee that I couldn't come down to Arizona, pick 5 random construction, restaurant, etc workers and find at least one who was hired illegally, right?

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Response to OneLoudVoice (Reply #28)

Tue Aug 28, 2018, 02:49 AM

29. It will depend upon which part of Arizona you come to.

Phoenix was a sanctuary city. They are no longer. Tempe still is. Scottsdale never will be. Tucson is a sanctuary city with a massive liberal bent as is Flagstaff.

But the full implementation and forced use of E-Verify will over a brief time end the disparity between the very blue open borders loving portions of Arizona and the very red legal immigration only portions of Arizona.

One could say that Arizona is a state that truly reflects the greater issue of immigration debate in the US as a whole. We have blue and red portions that demand two very different approaches. Feds have stepped in more than once both on the blue side and now the red (much greater ICE enforcement with Trump). E-Verify has gone from voluntary to mandatory, from partial implementation to now full implementation (RIDE component now added).

Apparently you are not observing the changes implemented under Trump. Serious penalties are difficult until Congress gets off of its collective ass and makes meaningful changes to the law. Trump is however stepping up ICE enforcement raids at businesses which are causing fear which then forces these companies to hire fewer illegals. Is it the end goal? Fuck no. But Trump has to undo decades of open borders, minimal ICE enforcement, lack of use of E-Verify, sanctuary cities and states, and lax penalties for businesses. It has not even been two years since Trump was elected.

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Response to Sebastopolitan (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 05:50 PM

18. You do from me and many of us.

But yes,there are those in power and influence on both sides of the aisle that have no honor.

Dems want poor,dependent on government voters and Reps have been happy with cheap labor.

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Response to JaimeBondoJr (Original post)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 01:45 PM

3. This really isn't difficult

Illegal immigration is a big problem. There is no one single solution that will fix this problem. Going after the employers that hire illegal immigrants is one important part of a comprehensive solution. If you make going to the US as an illegal immigrant less attractive by reducing the opportunities in the US for illegal immigrants, you will reduce the numbers of those choosing to make that decision.

Border security and deportations are also valid parts of a comprehensive solution.

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Response to FreeWheelBurning (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 01:57 PM

13. What?! Someone here is talking about comprehensive solutions?!

 

That's exactly what Congress has refused to do for me than a decade.

But we never seem to get past that tilting-at-windmills "secure the border, secure the border, secure the border" squawking. Never mind that the border is more tightly policed than ever--the number of BP agents has quadrupled in 20 years--and Trump wants to double down with his border wall boondoggle.

Then there's the refusal to acknowledge that undocumented workers play an important role in our economy. They do, and that role should be normalized, whether through work permits or guest worker programs or a path to either citizenship or permanent resident status.

It's called comprehensive immigration reform. We should try it some time, instead of just beating up on people trying to make better lives for themselves and their families.

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Response to Sebastopolitan (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 02:10 PM

14. Another topic within the immigration debate

From your reply

Then there's the refusal to acknowledge that undocumented workers play an important role in our economy. They do, and that role should be normalized, whether through work permits or guest worker programs or a path to either citizenship or permanent resident status.

I am all in favor of using immigration to fill needs within the economy. At this time I do not think it is possible to come to an accurate description of that need. Right now, through the underground economy, illegal immigrants are suppressing wages in certain sectors of the economy. When, and I doubt we ever reach that time at our current pace, illegal immigrations is under control, wages in those sectors will rise and the incentive for current citizens to take those jobs will also rise. If there is still an unfilled demand for labor after wage normalization, then by all means, lets increase legal immigration to fill those needs.

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Response to FreeWheelBurning (Reply #3)

Sun Aug 26, 2018, 01:22 AM

21. Its a big problem?

It doesnt seem that anyone in power thinks it is.

I think the thing you miss is that we already have border security. and deportations. They may be valid parts of a solution, but they on their own are clear failures.

Lets try the part of that comprehensive solution that hasn't been tried, rather than doubling down on the parts that have failed.

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Response to JaimeBondoJr (Original post)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 01:46 PM

5. St. Ronald of Jellybean himself said that employers were the problem

 

Are you going to say the Republican Messiah was wrong?

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Response to FORD (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 01:49 PM

8. No-he was right

 

Employers are part of the problem. Although he screwed up with his amnesty.

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Response to JaimeBondoJr (Original post)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 01:48 PM

7. Birth control..??

 

I don't think the rethugs would go for THAT..!!!!

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Response to frankt8242 (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 01:49 PM

9. Why wouldn't they? NT

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Response to frankt8242 (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 01:55 PM

11. Now there is a thought.

Obviously overpopulation is the root to all the problems that these illegals are running from. So let's help at the source, mandatory sterilization to all illegals caught on this side of the boarder.

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Response to JaimeBondoJr (Original post)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 01:49 PM

10. The employers are a a big part of the problem, if they get fined enough they will

quit hiring illegals. They are breaking the law and large fines would be a perfect deterrent. If they can't get a job here they will go home. Don't have time to go there and look at the OP but the premise is very sound.

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Response to joannadufrane (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 02:26 PM

15. There has to be a way for employers to check, and if they do, they should not be liable

Is E-Verify adequate? If not, what should they use?

I have no problem with going after employers if they do not use the available tools. However, if they do and the person was falsely cleared, they should be blameless.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #15)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 05:22 PM

16. 18 years ago I worked at a place where the HR hag actually helped them

get fake SS numbers and documentation. E- verify works, but some employers will do their best to skirt around it if they can. It's been my experience if they are under 40 and can't speak English it's a good bet they're not legal but employers love to pay them cheaply or under the table.

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Response to JaimeBondoJr (Original post)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 05:54 PM

19. They only come here because illegal employers will embrace 'em.

 

You don't need a fucking wall - even if you could build one that works.

Unlike a wall, throwing the owners of the various construction businesses in jail and seizing their assets is a profit center.

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Response to JaimeBondoJr (Original post)

Wed Feb 22, 2017, 06:09 PM

20. Jail the CEO and head of HR.

fine the company severely.
Fine banks, and jail loan officers, fine and imprison landlords.
Make it a felony to hire undocumented workers.

Demagnetize the country. Simple.

If there is no work here, they will leave.

I have a sympathy for people wanting a better life. Go home and fix those shit holes.
If they can bring prosperity to their own homelands they win, we win, everyone but the power elites does.

The last thing Mexico, or Honduras or Nicaragua wants is its motivated and restless people to come back home with a taste of success.

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