Politicsmarxbitcoinsatoshicryptocurrenciescapitalismcommunism

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 01:57 PM

Bitcoin and Marx’s Theory of History

Satoshi had political motives as well. While he did not see Bitcoin as a necessary and sufficient tool for creating a better world, he believed it was a start. From the Cryptography Mailing List:

Yes, (we will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography), but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years. Governments are good at cutting off the heads of centrally controlled networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem to be holding their own.

And here, again, we come back to Marx. If Bitcoin does end up becoming part of a larger global revolution, its decentralized nature is exactly what Marx predicted. He did not believe in the proletariat’s ability to organize themselves effectively. From Phillip Gasper’s The Communist Manifesto: A Road Map To History’s Most Important Political Document:

Marx and Engels (his co-writer) never speculated on the detailed organization of a future socialist or communist society. The key task for them was building a movement to overthrow capitalism. If and when that movement was successful, it would be up to the members of the new society to decide democratically how it was to be organized, in the concrete historical circumstances in which they found themselves.

Whole article: http://bitcoinmagazine.com/15148/bitcoin-marxs-theory-history/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BitcoinMagazine+%28Bitcoin+Magazine%29

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Arrow 16 replies Author Time Post
Reply Bitcoin and Marx’s Theory of History (Original post)
id-entity Jul 2014 OP
Nixons_Ghost Jul 2014 #1
id-entity Jul 2014 #3
Duncus Jul 2014 #2
id-entity Jul 2014 #4
Nixons_Ghost Jul 2014 #6
id-entity Jul 2014 #7
Nixons_Ghost Jul 2014 #9
id-entity Jul 2014 #10
Nixons_Ghost Jul 2014 #11
id-entity Jul 2014 #12
Nixons_Ghost Jul 2014 #13
id-entity Jul 2014 #14
Nixons_Ghost Jul 2014 #15
id-entity Jul 2014 #16
Nixons_Ghost Jul 2014 #5
id-entity Jul 2014 #8

Response to id-entity (Original post)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 02:05 PM

1. Marxism....

Bitcoin only works with the infusion of official currency.

Marxism cannot work without being a parasite on a previously formed capitalist society.

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Response to Nixons_Ghost (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 02:20 PM

3. Worth reading

the whole article.

And yes, I believe the birth of cryptocurrencies has been much influenced by the out-of-thin-air-fiats of central banks, and the question that if central banks & few chosen private banks can do so, why not everybody else?

Slavoj Zizek made interesting remark, that Lenin chose to establish a central bank for Soviet union, because it was the best social ledger available that time, and that Lenin would have chosen Internet - and as the article suggests p2p block chain ledgers, as basis of communist society.

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Response to id-entity (Original post)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 02:19 PM

2. Oh dear, this will upset my libertarain friend who sees Bitcoin as the ideal currency,

answerable only to the invisible hand of the market place and free of State control.

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Response to Duncus (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 02:27 PM

4. Libertarians

ie. both social anarchists and "anarchocapitalists" agree and are comrades on the anarchy part... and also all Marxist communists are anarchists who believe that transition period of state socialism is necessary to evolve to anarcho-communist free society. With global capitalism where nation states have become puppets of central banks, historical materialism states that "all their money are belong to us"... (Global is the new International!)

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Response to id-entity (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 03:02 PM

6. Communism....

Can never be anarchic because communism works against human nature. The most difficult work would never be done due apathy. There will always have to be a force propelling any sort of communist or socialist society.

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Response to Nixons_Ghost (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 03:35 PM

7. When you speak

about "human nature" please be careful to remind yourself that you are speaking only about your own character and / or self image, not human nature in all its variety and potential. We are very adaptive species.

And again, in Marxist terminology, anarchy and communism mean same, a stateless and classless society. "Socialism" means in Marxist terms transition period to anarcho-communist utopia via state socialism. Bakunin warned that state socialism will be hard to differentiate what became to be known as National Socialism, and history is on Bakunin's side.

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Response to id-entity (Reply #7)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 03:56 PM

9. Thanks

about "human nature" please be careful to remind yourself that you are speaking only about your own character and / or self image, not human nature in all its variety and potential. We are very adaptive species.

No, I am speaking of scientific fact. Researchers have identified that selfishness is inborn, that we all seek the best possible outcome and that often means identifying the highest amount of resources for yourself.

Secondly, Humans are predisposed to laziness, if someone, something, will do a job for them then that is what they will do. Therefore a challenging job would be left undone especially if it meant heavy labor, alot of study etc. I am not talking about myself, I am talking about reality.

And again, in Marxist terminology, anarchy and communism mean same, a stateless and classless society.

Perhaps, but this again expresses a philosophy that says that jobs could be performed voluntarily free of force or coercion. ANy state in which that exists cannot be without a strata.

"Socialism" means in Marxist terms transition period to anarcho-communist utopia via state socialism. Bakunin warned that state socialism will be hard to differentiate what became to be known as National Socialism, and history is on Bakunin's side.

Perhaps, but the definition preferred by proponents isn't particularly helpful unless it is centered in the practice of the concept.

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Response to Nixons_Ghost (Reply #9)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 04:23 PM

10. Scientific facts

get old and replaced with other facts..., rinse and repeat...

And you are correct that any State cannot be without class division and structural oppression to force people to work for the state and elites instead for their mutual self-interest, and that's the whole point of evolving beyond State-model. Most human cultures have been "anarcho-communist" tribes, and that anthropological fact falsifies number of other "facts". Now thanks to math and Internet we are able to develop global society with similar p2p social structures as "primitive" tribes to replace the hierarchic models of obligatory oppression.

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Response to id-entity (Reply #10)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 04:31 PM

11. OK

get old and replaced with other facts..., rinse and repeat...

So we can reject anything we want and make up anything we want. Which is why Socialism and communism will not work. There is a set of traits that make humans the way they are and that set of traits can't be erased for a politcal structure.

And you are correct that any State cannot be without class division and structural oppression to force people to work for the state and elites instead for their mutual self-interest, and that's the whole point of evolving beyond State-model.
Most human cultures have been "anarcho-communist" tribes, and that anthropological fact falsifies number of other "facts". Now thanks to math and Internet we are able to develop global society with similar p2p social structures as "primitive" tribes to replace the hierarchic models of obligatory oppression.

And in those tribes, you had no great work being done, it was subsistence and nothing more. Like animals. ANd THAT is human nature, the onward progression of man makes it impossible for this to exist. Even in those tribes you mentioned, there was a strata and force was evident.

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Response to Nixons_Ghost (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 04:46 PM

12. Same old

"Gods Will", "Natural Order" etc crap to justify oppression and destruction of the ecological carrying capacity we all depend from. I'm not here to debate that insanity with insane with "facts" from "authorities", but I'd like to ask you, do you identify as oppressor of oppressed?

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Response to id-entity (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 04:58 PM

13. Neither...

I neither force anyone to do anything nor do I feel compelled by anyone to do anything I do not consent to.

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Response to Nixons_Ghost (Reply #13)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 05:08 PM

14. Sweet, so happy for you :)

How do you pull that of in human nature / social facts that according to your opinion are bound to have strata?

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Response to id-entity (Reply #14)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 05:23 PM

15. I don't put myself in that position

I am an entrepreneur and I am my only employee. I run a service based company and all activities I do are based on my own greed and/or my own consent to things.

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Response to Nixons_Ghost (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 05:48 PM

16. Fair enough

You take the neither-nor point of view, I'm also self-employed but take the both-and point of view as both oppressor and oppressed (and much else ) as I consider myself an "entity" consisting of all relations, biological, social etc. I don't live outside and independent of Babylon, so I'm part of Babylon, I don't live outside Mother Earth, so I'm part of Her.

Aho Mitakuye Oyasin!

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Response to Duncus (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 02:59 PM

5. Well,

It is actually. The value of the bit coin flows with the value of the currencies put into it. SO Bitcoin is only valuable based on the full faith and credit of those accepting it.

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Response to Nixons_Ghost (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 25, 2014, 03:36 PM

8. That holds to all currencies nt

Last edited Fri Jul 25, 2014, 04:23 PM - Edit history (1)

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