Politicspoliticskekholstertrumploserliar

Sat Dec 15, 2018, 12:16 PM

Go ahead and kill the ACA ...I love medical bill chili feed fundraisers!

They've been harder to find in recent years.

Who doesn't love chili?


33 replies, 361 views

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Reply Go ahead and kill the ACA ...I love medical bill chili feed fundraisers! (Original post)
Phlegm Monger Dec 2018 OP
Carl Dec 2018 #1
bfox74 Dec 2018 #2
Da Mannn Dec 2018 #3
His Daughter Dec 2018 #4
Nostrings Dec 2018 #5
His Daughter Dec 2018 #7
Nostrings Dec 2018 #10
His Daughter Dec 2018 #15
Nostrings Dec 2018 #16
His Daughter Dec 2018 #32
Nostrings Dec 2018 #33
Valishin Dec 2018 #17
nolidad Dec 2018 #11
His Daughter Dec 2018 #13
Valishin Dec 2018 #18
Charlie Mike Dec 2018 #22
nolidad Dec 2018 #26
Carl Dec 2018 #12
His Daughter Dec 2018 #14
Carl Dec 2018 #23
Charlie Mike Dec 2018 #24
Carl Dec 2018 #25
His Daughter Dec 2018 #30
nolidad Dec 2018 #27
Charlie Mike Dec 2018 #28
His Daughter Dec 2018 #31
Charlie Mike Dec 2018 #21
His Daughter Dec 2018 #29
Boston Dec 2018 #6
His Daughter Dec 2018 #8
CornFed Dec 2018 #9
Valishin Dec 2018 #19
Charlie Mike Dec 2018 #20

Response to Phlegm Monger (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2018, 12:32 PM

1. Too bad dumbocrats could not write a legal bill.

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Response to Phlegm Monger (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2018, 12:36 PM

2. The ACA eliminated my medical insurance.

Oh, I still had insurance and paid a hell of a lot more money for it, but I got absolutely no benefits from it. But at least I was forced to pay a bunch money for it.

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Response to Phlegm Monger (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2018, 12:49 PM

3. OK, thanks PM. We aim to please.

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Response to Phlegm Monger (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2018, 01:06 PM

4. The ACA was well intentioned but horribly flawed in implementation

Probably set universal coverage back by at least a decade.

The original decision against some of the funding mechanisms would also have killed it, but implementation of it was held off pending this challenge.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #4)

Sat Dec 15, 2018, 01:08 PM

5. "Well intentioned" is a matter of opinion.

Redistribution of wealth is among the worst of intentions.

As is compelling people to participate in commerce.

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Response to Nostrings (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 15, 2018, 01:51 PM

7. It's stated intentions were to increase quality healthcare availability in the US

A noble and laudable goal. It went about it horribly.

Nobody wants a poor mother to have to choose between paying the rent and buying needed meds for her sick child. That is not the kind of nation we are. It does happen, I have seen it personally.

We need a comprehensive review of medical care delivery in the US. We have the resources to insure that people get the care they need. It can be done more economically than the doom and gloom types says and it is not going to be as cheap as the pollyanna types claim. Its is not a right either, its a choice we as a nation can and should make.

I posted my approach to get that going here previously. Start with study groups of all stake holders and open the thinking up to shake up the traditional models we have been stuck with. Vast expansion of Nurse Practitioners role and scope, paramedics that are more like PJs, decentralized coverage etc are all things that should be considered.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 15, 2018, 05:29 PM

10. Its stated intentions were a lie.

"Nobody wants a poor mother to have to choose between paying the rent and buying needed meds for her sick child."

"Want" has nothing to do with it. It isn't governments proper place.



"That is not the kind of nation we are."

"We have the resources to insure that people get the care they need."


This sort of forced teaming is manipulative and offensive.

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Response to Nostrings (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 12:33 AM

15. Disagree...something about provide for the common welfare

If wanting to see everyone have basic medical care including medications if offensive to you, by all means be a snowflake.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 12:47 AM

16. Now you're being disingenuous.

"Disagree...something about provide for the common welfare"

It says "promote" not "provide". Any argument that they're the same, to be blunt, is constitutionally ignorant.

"If wanting to see everyone have basic medical care including medications if offensive to you, by all means be a snowflake."

And here we get to the disingenuous part. *I* never said I didn't want anyone to have medical care.

I said it wasn't the purview of government to be involved in doling it out.


What *offends* me, is this *WE* crap. You don't speak for me or for anyone outside of yourself, so don't presume to.

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Response to Nostrings (Reply #16)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 12:35 PM

32. Anytime somebody uses the word offensive like that today, I hit them with the snowflake card

Not singling you out in the slightest. I do it to everyone and not everyone likes it. I take various approaches, some more conciliatory than others, but I always call it out.

We are adults and need to be able to discuss and address things without being offended or declaring things offensive. We need to deal with things and people as they are and where we find them. That includes constitutional views.

I use the term "we" broadly and will continue to do so...as in we the people. Its never 100%, not then, not now.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #32)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 12:48 PM

33. Be careful.

"Forced Teaming. This is when a person implies that they have something in common with their chosen victim, acting as if they have a shared predicament when that isn't really true. Speaking in "we" terms is a mark of this, i.e. "We don't need to talk outside... Let's go in."

"We are adults and need to be able to discuss and address things without being offended or declaring things offensive. We need to deal with things and people as they are and where we find them. That includes constitutional views."

Then you need to do it respectfully, remembering that unlike in the military, "We" is a choice subject to incentive and disincentive, not a mandate from somewhere above.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 12:56 AM

17. You forgot

the next four words. Of the United States, is the federal government not the people. That clause allows the government to fund its operations in fulfilling its enumerated powers. It has nothing to do with the health and "welfare" of the populace.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 15, 2018, 06:05 PM

11. Which states are free to do, but the federal government is forbidden

by the constitution from mandating any kind of insurance plan on the population!

Article 10

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Nothing in the Constitution allows the federal government to force healthcare down peoples throat-- even if it is the best plan in the world! It is illegal!

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Response to nolidad (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 12:31 AM

13. By your logic there should be no Medicare or Social Security

Also the Feds could build the framework that the states fund and maintain

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 12:59 AM

18. As a mandate

that is correct. We have been allowing doing it wrong to set the standard for a long time.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 07:19 AM

22. "By your logic there should be no Medicare or Social Security."

Okay.

I know, I know: Lots of people rely on those... and they're horribly mismanaged.

Chemical dependency is a piss-poor reason to keep dispensing a drug. The best course of action is to ween the victim off of those drugs.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #13)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 08:43 AM

26. Valishin answered correctly in #18

The fed can set up a voluntary system but not mandate a system

States and towns can set up mandatory systems if they choose and that is fully constitutional.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 15, 2018, 06:36 PM

12. Where does it end?

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Response to Carl (Reply #12)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 12:32 AM

14. Probably at cosmetic procedures

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 07:43 AM

23. I didn't mean it that way but as a philosophical argument.

Food,clothing,a house?
Are all of those to be provided federally?

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Response to Carl (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 07:47 AM

24. Lefty says: if it is a right the government is obligated to provide it.

That means the government obligated to provide every citizen with a bible and the firearm of their choice.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 08:08 AM

25. I do like His Daughter here and I do believe her thoughts are out of genuine care.

She has some really good ideas for reforming our healthcare system but I just can`t get onboard with it being federally delivered.

First is that no one at that level will be honest about any part of it,we saw that with Ocare.

Second was my point above,where would it end if based entirely out of empathy,you and I both know that all I said would be demanded.

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Response to Carl (Reply #25)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 12:28 PM

30. The regulatory changes need requrie Federal action to enable if nothing else

and I acknowledge that integrity is always an issue where these kinds of sums are involved. That does not mean it cannot or should not be looked at.

I think the end it optional treatments including cosmetic. That line is well understood via insurance companies today. An easy example: Breast surgery for cancer and rebuilding afterward should be covered, breast enhancement for cosmetic reasons should not be.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 08:44 AM

27. The fed is only allowed to act within the framework of the Constitution.

Our nation started heavily on the path of destruction during the reign of FDR!

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Response to nolidad (Reply #27)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 09:20 AM

28. I concur, but lefty will insist the general welfare clause allows them to do whatever they want.

Granted, they do so ignoring the difference between "promote" and "provide."

It could also be argued that criminalizing single parenthood would promote the general welfare but lefty runs away when the arguments become too inconvenient.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 12:29 PM

31. One of the reasons I explicitly said it is not a right...

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #7)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 07:15 AM

21. "It's stated intentions..."

You're too kind.

We know you're too smart to actually give credence to what politicians say.


"We need a comprehensive review of medical care delivery in the US."

Review by whom, though? Politicians? Bureaucrats? Insular academics? They study groups will find whatever answer best suits the objectives of the people holding their purse strings.

I say: Let the consumers review it.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 12:23 PM

29. The problem is the consumers cannot change things

I like broad based problem solving teams as being the vehicle to find solutions. They have to be honest participants and such, but they can produce awesome results that do not come for single discipline teams. We need some of them on healthcare.

They have to have all the stake holders. Physicians, hospital/medical infrastructure, medical service providers like labs and physical therapy, emergency groups, pharmaceutical companies, pharmacies, researchers, insurance companies, government, and consumers. My list has probably left off some as well, but it is Sunday morning. If they do not all buy in at some level, then it will not work. No single group can produce solutions by themselves.

Ideas I like include:
- Expanding nurse practitioners. Right now the limits on them would surprise you.
- I would like to see the scope of EMS/Paramedics expanded to more like those of an
Navy independent corpsman or USAF PJ, particularly in remote areas.
- I would like to see government subsidies for drug research turn into low cost front line drugs
(very controversial in the pharmaceutical community).
- I would like to see the govt funding cap on MD training lifted
(something most people are unaware of).
Those kind of changes take the entire medical community, and it is a big chunk of our economy and lives.

I am also for universal coverage, not necessarily single payer. Funding it needs to be on the table. Employer, participants, and the government all have a potential role.

What I do not want is the disasters that are UK NHS, or the Canadian system. The systems in France and Israel might be some to take ideas from. However in the end it still needs to be an American solution tailored for our needs and expectations. It should not interfere with entrepreneurship in the medical field, which is what most government run systems kill.

Its a big order, but it starts with study groups that are very cheap. Lets at least explore what is possible.

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Response to Phlegm Monger (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2018, 01:09 PM

6. Kill the ACA, and the chances of Medicare for All increase dramatically.

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Response to Boston (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 15, 2018, 01:53 PM

8. Medicare for all is a handy meme, but the wrong approach

In many areas, you will have a hard time finding doctors that accept Medicare. The reimbursement is too low, not even covering costs. That is acceptable while it is a small slice of the market. As it changes, reimbursements will have to rise or the loss of coverage will be a serious problem.

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Response to Phlegm Monger (Original post)

Sat Dec 15, 2018, 01:58 PM

9. Beans..

in chili? Blasphemy.

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Response to CornFed (Reply #9)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 01:00 AM

19. This is likely the most important part of this conversation

all the best chili has both beans and meat. The right balance is debatable though.

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Response to Phlegm Monger (Original post)

Sun Dec 16, 2018, 07:11 AM

20. Seeing as the ACA drove people's premiums and deductibles through the roof you ahve plenty of

reasons to hold chili fund raisers.

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