Politicspolitics

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:01 PM

How Should We Talk About the Israel Lobbys Power?

Let’s get this out of the way first: Using the phrases “all about the Benjamins” and “allegiance to a foreign country” when referring to the Israel lobby in D.C., as freshman Democratic representative Ilhan Omar recently did, is anti-Semitic. It should be possible to criticize Washington’s relationship with Israel without deploying crude and freighted language like this. But it got me wondering: Is it possible to write honestly about the Israel lobby’s power in D.C. without using any anti-Semitic “tropes” at all?

The basic facts are not really in dispute. A very powerful lobby deploys the money and passions of its members to ensure that a foreign country gets very, very special treatment from the U.S. Many of its supporters are Evangelical Protestants who want to accelerate the Second Coming. Others spring from an older and very American form of Christian Zionism. Many others are also American Jews with a commitment to Israel that has its roots both in the Torah and in a vow never to allow a second Holocaust.

I find basing foreign policy on apocalyptic predictions from dubious parts of the Bible dangerous, but, hey, Christianists are going to Christianist. And the zeal of many Jewish Americans for Israel is completely understandable. After the Holocaust, no Jew need apologize for a millisecond for having Israel’s back. When you see the rising, rancid tide of open anti-Semitism in Europe, the capture of the British opposition party by this poisonous hatred, and the sharp rise in hate crimes against Jews, even in New York City, defending Israel is a core interest of not only Jews but all of us in what’s left of the West.

You might expect that in return for all that money and military protection, the Israeli government would be eager to please the U.S., help buttress American foreign policy diplomatically, or respond swiftly when the U.S. asks the Jewish state not to violate international law, launch wars that kill a lot of civilians, or construct a brutal and corrosive apartheid state on the West Bank. But after you’ve spent a while in Washington, you begin to realize that’s not exactly how this works. In return for giving Israel $3.8 billion a year … the U.S. is expected to consent to anything and everything Israel wants. When you look at this from a distance, it is really quite amazing.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/how-should-we-talk-about-the-israel-lobbys-power.html

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Reply How Should We Talk About the Israel Lobbys Power? (Original post)
uncledad Mar 9 OP
Gamle-ged Mar 9 #1
uncledad Mar 9 #3
Charlie Mike Mar 9 #9
uncledad Mar 9 #12
Charlie Mike Mar 9 #13
uncledad Mar 9 #14
Charlie Mike Mar 9 #22
uncledad Mar 10 #23
Charlie Mike Mar 10 #34
uncledad Mar 10 #51
Charlie Mike Mar 10 #54
uncledad Mar 10 #55
uncledad Mar 9 #16
nolidad Mar 9 #2
uncledad Mar 9 #5
nolidad Mar 10 #44
uncledad Mar 10 #49
nolidad Mar 10 #57
357blackhawk Mar 9 #4
uncledad Mar 9 #6
Da Mannn Mar 9 #20
uncledad Mar 10 #24
Grumpy Pickle Mar 10 #26
Banshee 3 Actual Mar 10 #32
Troll2 Mar 9 #7
uncledad Mar 9 #10
Grumpy Pickle Mar 10 #27
Charlie Mike Mar 9 #8
Jond414 Mar 10 #35
Charlie Mike Mar 10 #36
Jond414 Mar 10 #37
Charlie Mike Mar 10 #38
Jond414 Mar 10 #40
Charlie Mike Mar 10 #42
Jond414 Mar 10 #47
uncledad Mar 10 #50
Muddling Through Mar 10 #58
Jond414 Mar 10 #41
Charlie Mike Mar 10 #43
Jond414 Mar 10 #48
Charlie Mike Mar 10 #56
TendiesForBreakfast Mar 10 #45
Banshee 3 Actual Mar 10 #53
Troll2 Mar 9 #11
uncledad Mar 9 #15
Salaam Mar 9 #17
uncledad Mar 9 #18
Salaam Mar 9 #19
Grumpy Pickle Mar 10 #29
Salaam Mar 13 #60
nolidad Mar 10 #46
nolidad Mar 11 #59
Salaam Mar 13 #61
nolidad Mar 13 #62
Salaam Mar 13 #64
nolidad Mar 14 #65
JaimeBondoJr Mar 9 #21
uncledad Mar 10 #28
Grumpy Pickle Mar 10 #25
DillyDilly500 Mar 10 #30
Charlie Mike Mar 10 #39
nolidad Mar 13 #63
uncledad Mar 10 #31
safestuffer Mar 10 #33
uncledad Mar 10 #52

Response to uncledad (Original post)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:14 PM

1. Speaking as an American atheist (small ''a'') I favor the continuing support of Israel, partly for..

... the amazing story of Israel, from its inception following the Holocaust through the wars thrust upon it by neighboring Arab nations, seeking to utterly destroy that nation and Jews in general...

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Response to Gamle-ged (Reply #1)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:20 PM

3. The article is by Andrew Sullivan.

I thought it might help to see what other conservatives had to say.

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Response to uncledad (Reply #3)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:31 PM

9. You think Sullivan is a conservative?

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #9)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:35 PM

12. He's not?

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Response to uncledad (Reply #12)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:36 PM

13. He's not.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #13)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:40 PM

14. How so?

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Response to uncledad (Reply #14)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 08:05 PM

22. I would attribute it to his lack of consistent advocacy for conservative positions.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #22)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 12:18 AM

23. A conservative can't change their mind?

I don't believe that to be logical.

Faced with new information, they have proven they are capable of making adjustments.

I wouldn't stamp the label of fixed in stone as a requirement to being conservative.

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Response to uncledad (Reply #23)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 04:58 AM

34. If someone changes their mind they're no longer the thing they once were.

My shit storm of a "family" raised my to be a Carter liberal.

I struck out on my own, saw the world, had a family of my own and decided that was wholly untenable.

Only a fool would consider me a Carter liberal.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #34)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 11:01 AM

51. My family is border line crazy, and they are good at it.

Politically, they are all over the place. Some are register by party because of primary restrictions.

Two are anti-political. They want no part of it. They think we jumped off off into the deep end of an empty pool.

We're a fun group. lol

Basically, independents that lean toward the center where being a good neighbor has a higher priority over all.

Lot's of frustration with the corruption in the political system.

Consensus opinion is we are going to disagree on some things. And yes the dog just drank your beer...

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Response to uncledad (Reply #51)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 11:55 AM

54. That's lovely but it has nothing to do with my point and I could not care less.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #54)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 12:09 PM

55. Noted.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #13)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 07:02 PM

16. How about this guy?

Israel Is Not America’s Ally

By Daniel Larison • March 8, 2019, 7:38 PM

Andrew Sullivan comments on the U.S.-Israel relationship and the role of “pro-Israel” lobbying groups in our politics in a new essay. There are several things that I think Sullivan gets wrong, but perhaps the most significant and pervasive error in the piece is his repeated description of the relationship an “alliance.”

He notes that the U.S. gets nothing in return for the extensive military and diplomatic support that it provides, he acknowledges that the U.S. “suffers internationally” on account of its close relationship with Israel, and he marvels at how badly its government under Netanyahu has behaved towards the U.S.

Nonetheless, he writes, “I would defend the alliance despite this, because of my core belief in a Jewish state.”

The trouble with all this is that there is no alliance and Israel is not our ally. Its government does not behave as an ally does, it has never fought alongside U.S. forces in any of our foreign wars, and its interests are not aligned with ours as an ally’s should be. There is no formal treaty and no binding obligations that require our governments to do anything for the other.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/israel-is-not-americas-ally/

Daniel Larison has a Ph.D. in history and is a contributing editor at The American Conservative. He also writes on the blog Eunomia.

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Response to uncledad (Original post)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:17 PM

2. Well you think this way because you draw some very very wrong conclusions!

". Many of its supporters are Evangelical Protestants who want to accelerate the Second Coming "

WRONG! evangelical protestants have a strong alliance with Israel simply because they are Gods covenanted people and will be saved as a nation and people in the future. Also that God declared He will do to people what they do to Israel.

"launch wars that kill a lot of civilians,"

Wrong again ! The only wart that Israel "launched" was their incursion into Lebanon to create a buffer zone! And that was after 1,000 katusha rockets were fired into Israel from Lebanon

" construct a brutal and corrosive apartheid state on the West Bank."

Wrong again ! Palestinians rule Palestinians on the West bank. The only reason why the Israeli army still makes incursions is that the Palestine govt. doe snot recognize Israels right to exist!

Israel has made many mistakes. soldiers have gotten too angry and unjustly killed Paelstinians. Most of them are aslso in Israeli jails. Palestinians pay people when they kill Jews!

Yes Israel has bombed schools, hospitals and neighborhoods! but when the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah made those places to launch rockets, and armories they removed the protections international law allows!

In the Oslo meetings- Israel was willing to give 95% of everything Arafat wanted- Arafat walked out!

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Response to nolidad (Reply #2)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:22 PM

5. " Well you think " who are you refering to?

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Response to uncledad (Reply #5)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 08:49 AM

44. Whoever wrote the stuff before the link you posted.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #44)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 10:17 AM

49. Just checking that you know...

that I post things I don't always agree with. I do that so people can have a place to express their opinion, of what someone other than the narrow confines of DI have on different subjects.

This time I choose a conservative writer, I think he's a conservative, it was linked in an opinion piece in the American Conservative blog on the Andrew Sullivan's article.

Of what he said, I think he makes several controversial points, without being anti Semitic.

You have a different view of his opinion, and I respect your personal view, the same way I respect his view. To me that's not an endorsement of either side's view. It's simply putting the views of groups of people, who claim to be on the right or left politically, out there to compare where they stand.

This is a difficult subject to discuss. Just by way of the responses at the American Conservative, I'd surmise not everyone shares a"conservative" point of view, or is it main stream Republicanism over there.

Good Sunday morning to you.

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Response to uncledad (Reply #49)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 01:24 PM

57. Well everyone is entitled to their opinions, but not their facts.

Being a staunch runner in evangelical circles I know this man is lying!

His last paragraph is so far off the track as to make this man a shill for the anit Semitic people of the world!

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Response to uncledad (Original post)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:20 PM

4. complete bullshit

The basic facts are not really in dispute. A very powerful lobby deploys the money and passions of its members to ensure that a foreign country gets very, very special treatment from the U.S. Many of its supporters are Evangelical Protestants who want to accelerate the Second Coming. Others spring from an older and very American form of Christian Zionism. Many others are also American Jews with a commitment to Israel that has its roots both in the Torah and in a vow never to allow a second Holocaust. It isn't any more powerful than any other lobby. The "accelerate second coming" is not not the reason. Has its roots in the Torah because the Jews are the indigenous people of the region.


You might expect that in return for all that money and military protection, the Israeli government would be eager to please the U.S., help buttress American foreign policy diplomatically, or respond swiftly when the U.S. asks the Jewish state not to violate international law, launch wars that kill a lot of civilians, or construct a brutal and corrosive apartheid state on the West Bank. But after you’ve spent a while in Washington, you begin to realize that’s not exactly how this works. In return for giving Israel $3.8 billion a year … the U.S. is expected to consent to anything and everything Israel wants. When you look at this from a distance, it is really quite amazing. Hamas and KGB propaganda from the 1980s. Launch wars that kill civilians? You mean when Hamas launches missiles from schools at civilians, Israel defends itself by destroying said missiles? You know the real reason why there are so many civilian causalities? Because the Arabs use human shields. Apartheid my ass, the PA oppress their own people and prohibit Jews from owning property.
Just another left winger who blindly believes the bullshit from his Marxist professors.

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Response to 357blackhawk (Reply #4)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:25 PM

6. The article is by Andrew Sullivan.

Go look him up.

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Response to uncledad (Reply #6)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 07:20 PM

20. Well, Andrew Sullivan writes bullshit. We get it. Democrats hate Jews.

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Response to Da Mannn (Reply #20)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 12:21 AM

24. Thank you for the vacuous reply.

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Response to Da Mannn (Reply #20)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 12:28 AM

26. How can you even say that when every single jewish member of congress is a Democrat ?

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Response to Grumpy Pickle (Reply #26)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 01:15 AM

32. Hon. Lee Zeldin (R-NY1) also served in the 82nd Abn in Tikrit Iraq

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Response to uncledad (Original post)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:25 PM

7. for continuity, between your paragraphs 3 and 4, insert --

The question, it seems to me, is one of proportion.

Take foreign aid. The U.S. provides the Jewish state with $3.8 billion a year in aid, and has committed to doing so for each of the next ten years. Compare that with what the U.S. gives other allies who are as wealthy as Israel: The U.K. got $150,000 in 2017; South Korea got $775,000. The average aid for high-income countries like Israel, according to USAID, is $79 million a year. Israel gets 48 times more.

Per capita, the disparity is close to absurd. Israel gets $436 in U.S. aid a year; dirt-poor Afghanistan $154; post-war Iraq $91; Egypt $14. By any measure, this is extreme exceptionalism. Yes, Israel faces military threats. But so does South Korea. And, unlike South Korea, Israel has nuclear weapons (illegally acquired) and its enemies don’t. The IDF and the Mossad stride the region with unparalleled military capacity and a vast technological edge. Israel is not David any more. It’s Goliath. And even if you believe the U.S. should somehow be aiding a country as wealthy as Israel, you’ve got to admit the scale of it is off the charts.

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Response to Troll2 (Reply #7)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:34 PM

10. Thanks for the add in.

Four paragraph rule, minus the numbers he presented.

The money is important in one sense, but not as reflective of his opinion on the title. IMHO

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Response to Troll2 (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 12:31 AM

27. Totally agree.....it's more like extortion.

....and why isn't Great Britian paying Israel's bills instead of the US ?

They're the ones that started this with their Balfour-Rothschild Deal.

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Response to uncledad (Original post)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:30 PM

8. The same as labor unions. Although, unlike labor unions, Israeli lobbyists don't serve

hostile foreign powers or organized crime.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #8)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 05:20 AM

35. The is why lobbying should be illegal.

It perverts democracy, and should be treason. Why does America need lobbyists? Why don’t law makers ask their constituents what laws they’d like to see passed, not take money and then do what money wants them to do.

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Response to Jond414 (Reply #35)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 05:26 AM

36. Are individuals allowed to spend money in support of political causes and politicians?

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #36)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 05:28 AM

37. Yes and the amount should be limited

So 1 person gets 1 vote. End the corruption, overturn citizens united. Why is money speech?

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Response to Jond414 (Reply #37)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 05:34 AM

38. Because groups of people decide to support the same policies / politicians.

They come together to coordinate their efforts.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #38)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 05:39 AM

40. Nobody in my state supported what lobbyists did

In overturning a living wage ballot proposal that voters passed by ballot initiative. Even after lobbyists and business friendly judges tried to have the proposal removed from the ballot, there were just too many signatures at the end of the day. I guess the voters did know what they wanted, and then went to the polls to vote for it. Republicans state legislators listened to lobbyists, not the will of the voters. I’m sure there are other examples, but isn’t 1 bad enough?

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Response to Jond414 (Reply #40)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 05:41 AM

42. They did you a favor.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #42)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 09:40 AM

47. No they didnt and

That s not my point. You know that but you have no excuse other than saying something that isn’t true.

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Response to Jond414 (Reply #47)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 10:24 AM

50. I saw that.

What ever happen to the rising tide lifts all boats analogy? Spread the wealth?

Crony capitalism. Political corruption. Tone deaf political parties.

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Response to Jond414 (Reply #40)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 02:04 PM

58. "Nobody in my state supported what lobbyists did"

So, the ballot initiative passed with 100% of the vote? If not, then the lobbyists were supported by a portion of the population.

Why should people who have no skin in the game be able to tell a business owner how much they should pay employees? You might as well let the voters pass a law telling McDonald's how much they can charge for a cheeseburger.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #38)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 05:40 AM

41. Fine put a limit on the money

That would be a decent compromise?

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Response to Jond414 (Reply #41)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 05:41 AM

43. There are already limits.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #8)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 08:59 AM

45. Crew of the USS Liberty would like to disagree.

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Response to TendiesForBreakfast (Reply #45)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 11:32 AM

53. When the 8th & 9th USAAF dropped short on 24 &25 July 44 and killed 450 G.I.'s and a 4 star general

Was the Air force trying to do something nefarious? or just a mistake?

When British Fighters attacked a US Column of the 175th Infantry 2 days off Omaha beach and killed 24 wounded 30 was it deliberate?

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Response to uncledad (Original post)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:35 PM

11. In another 50 years it will be much diminished.

US Jews are becoming more and more assimilated, just like other ethnic groups.

Because of the religious aspect, Jews have slightly more affinity for Israel than other ethnic groups for their homelands. However, just as the solidarity of Cubans to support the reconquest of Cuba or Mexicans to reconquer the Southwest wains with time, so does the affinity of Jews for Israel. I used to work with folks from the Baltic States who thought that every resource of the US should be devoted to freeing them from Russia.

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Response to Troll2 (Reply #11)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 06:54 PM

15. There will always be a percentage of support among US Jewish community.

Orthodox- Reform split. Inter-marriage. Separation from religious conservative community.

Older generations are still talking about the days before Castro, third generation aren't that interested.

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Response to uncledad (Original post)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 07:09 PM

17. AIPAC spends a lot influencing both parties.

No big surprise there.

And they get rewarded for it.

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Response to Salaam (Reply #17)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 07:17 PM

18. Very true.

"Now observe the public discourse in Washington. Here is Nancy Pelosi last year: “If this capitol crumbled to the ground, the one thing that would remain would be our commitment to aid — I won’t even call it aid — our cooperation with Israel.” Chew on that a minute. If the United States were to collapse, its one objective would be to aid a foreign country."

from the article ^

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Response to uncledad (Reply #18)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 07:19 PM

19. 1 area of bi-partisan agreement.

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Response to Salaam (Reply #17)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 12:38 AM

29. IMO, Israel uses the very money we give it every year to then turn around and buy our own politician

with our own tax dollars.

Nice scheme, isn't it ?


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Response to Grumpy Pickle (Reply #29)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:15 AM

60. true

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Response to Salaam (Reply #17)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 08:59 AM

46. You must be delsuional!

Aipac spends three million a year on lobbying! Total lobbying that is pro-Israel in America amounts to a little over $5,000,000! This does not even qualify it to be one of the top 100 interests in dollars spent lobbying Congress!

AIPAC's total spending on lobbying Congress equals less than 1/10th of 1% of total money spent on lobbying Congress by all entities.

https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s

https://www.statista.com/statistics/257364/top-lobbying-industries-in-the-us/

https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/indusclient.php?id=Q05&year=2018

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Response to Salaam (Reply #17)

Mon Mar 11, 2019, 06:01 PM

59. That is pure horsecrap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AIPAC in 2018 spent a total of a little over $3 million dollars in lobbying- it doesn't even gets it to be in the top 50 lobbyists!

Maybe you should get facts straight before you make false accusations!

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Response to nolidad (Reply #59)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:16 AM

61. what does it lobby for?

and that doesn't count dark money by rich donors.

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Response to Salaam (Reply #61)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 04:30 PM

62. Well why don't you show us the dark money then!

Maybe it will be about $45,000,000 so that the big bad boogy man of Israeli lobby8ing would equal the money spent by muslim lobbying spent by Saudi Arabia, Qutar, and the UAE. They spend $50,000,000 a year lobbying the politicians of America-- Maybe we should devote 10X more scrutiny on them as you want to spend on AIPAC!

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Response to nolidad (Reply #62)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 05:25 PM

64. LOL

know why it's called dark money?

And crooked Donnie shelters the Saudis because the Saudis give crooked Donnie money.

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Response to Salaam (Reply #64)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 01:10 PM

65. Well you said there is dark money.

So if you know there is- you must have evidence of it! Or was that just verbal methane?

But the left screams against Israel often for their $5,000,000 spent in lobbying!

Why aren't they screaming against the Muslims for their over $45,000,000 in lobbying???

They spend 9X more in lobbying our politicians and yet the left is silent

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Response to uncledad (Original post)

Sat Mar 9, 2019, 07:22 PM

21. Talk about it however the fuck you like. It's a free country. Others I'm sure can do the same.

Talk about it how. Ever. The. Fuck. You. Like.

What I notice about most of you on the left though is you're not happy "talking" about something unless EVERYONE is in agreement with what YOU'RE saying. When they don't, you ban them from the DUmp, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc.

So talk about the Israel Lobby however the fuck you like; just don't expect to hear echoes of your opinions void of any dissent in the vacuum you always try to create.

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Response to JaimeBondoJr (Reply #21)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 12:35 AM

28. Thanks for the reply.

I will try to keep it in mind, although, I don't have any control over what other people think, say or do.

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Response to uncledad (Original post)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 12:22 AM

25. America is Israel's poodle.

How embarrassing ...

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Response to Grumpy Pickle (Reply #25)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 12:44 AM

30. Blood soaked poodle.

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Response to DillyDilly500 (Reply #30)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 05:38 AM

39. Let me guess:

You prefer the baby bombing, throat slitting, school hiding, wife beating, death chanting Arabs.

What's the attraction? Shared principles?

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Response to DillyDilly500 (Reply #30)

Wed Mar 13, 2019, 04:31 PM

63. Well seeing how the Muslims spend $50,000,000 lobbying Amerrica

Maybe we are their blood soaked pig!

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Response to Grumpy Pickle (Reply #25)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 12:55 AM

31. Good to hear from you.

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Response to uncledad (Original post)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 01:34 AM

33. Its relatively easy. You talk about policies as policies and not attributes of Jews as a people.

For instance, I can say that I disagree with the Israeli tactic of using .22lr sniping rifles as a "nonlethal" deterrence against children and non-threatening protesters. .22lr bullets are not "nonlethal" and if there is a situation where someone needs to be shot, just shoot them with a full caliber rifle and be done with it...or use something that is actually non-lethal.
What I cannot say is "THE JEWS don't care about killing brown kids"

I can say that the government of Israel works very hard to influence public perception through various means.
What you cannot say is "THE JEWS are HYPNOTIZING the world"

I can say that many Jewish people have a spiritual and cultural connection to the Jewish homeland and are supportive of the rights of Israel to exist.
What I can't say is "THE JEWS all have a secret allegiance to Israel"

I can say that many Jewish people in America donate money to pro-Israel entities.
I cannot say that "THE JEWS are buying politicians off with their JEW GOLD"





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Response to safestuffer (Reply #33)

Sun Mar 10, 2019, 11:14 AM

52. Covers the bases. Thanks for the reply.

I'll save the "non lethal .22" for an other time.

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