Politicspolitics

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 11:19 AM

I asked the question yesterday...

How does the Manafort sentencing make the US and its people better. How are the people more protected???

No germane answers???!!

89 replies, 1095 views

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Reply I asked the question yesterday... (Original post)
GoldwatersSoul Mar 14 OP
imwithfred Mar 14 #1
Cold Warrior Mar 14 #2
bruiserboy Mar 14 #4
Cold Warrior Mar 14 #17
bruiserboy Mar 14 #18
Cold Warrior Mar 14 #37
bruiserboy Mar 14 #38
DavesNotHere Mar 14 #21
GoldwatersSoul Mar 14 #11
bruiserboy Mar 14 #3
Horsefeathers Mar 14 #10
Muddling Through Mar 14 #5
Iron Condor Mar 14 #6
rampartb Mar 14 #7
Carlos W Bush Mar 14 #13
GoldwatersSoul Mar 14 #14
rampartb Mar 14 #25
GoldwatersSoul Mar 14 #39
jh4freedom Mar 14 #35
GoldwatersSoul Mar 14 #40
jh4freedom Mar 14 #50
GoldwatersSoul Mar 15 #55
jh4freedom Mar 15 #81
GoldwatersSoul Mar 18 #86
DavesNotHere Mar 14 #22
GoldwatersSoul Mar 14 #41
DavesNotHere Mar 14 #44
Tovera Mar 14 #36
nolens volens Mar 14 #8
GoldwatersSoul Mar 14 #15
nolens volens Mar 14 #23
GoldwatersSoul Mar 14 #24
nolens volens Mar 14 #32
Nostrings Mar 14 #45
nolens volens Mar 14 #46
Nostrings Mar 14 #47
nolens volens Mar 15 #53
Horsefeathers Mar 14 #9
GoldwatersSoul Mar 14 #20
Carlos W Bush Mar 14 #27
GoldwatersSoul Mar 14 #30
blue Mar 14 #12
KittyCatIdiots Mar 14 #16
quad489 Mar 14 #19
Salaam Mar 14 #26
GoldwatersSoul Mar 14 #28
Salaam Mar 14 #31
GoldwatersSoul Mar 14 #42
Salaam Mar 14 #52
Badsamm Mar 14 #29
GoldwatersSoul Mar 14 #33
jh4freedom Mar 14 #34
GoldwatersSoul Mar 14 #43
Prismmonkey Mar 14 #48
GoldwatersSoul Mar 14 #49
Prismmonkey Mar 14 #51
GoldwatersSoul Mar 15 #56
Prismmonkey Mar 15 #59
GoldwatersSoul Mar 15 #61
Prismmonkey Mar 15 #63
GoldwatersSoul Mar 15 #67
Prismmonkey Mar 15 #80
R. Cavu Mar 15 #54
GoldwatersSoul Mar 15 #57
R. Cavu Mar 15 #60
GoldwatersSoul Mar 15 #66
R. Cavu Mar 15 #70
GoldwatersSoul Mar 15 #72
R. Cavu Mar 15 #73
GoldwatersSoul Mar 15 #75
karmamax Mar 15 #58
GoldwatersSoul Mar 15 #62
R. Cavu Mar 15 #65
GoldwatersSoul Mar 15 #69
R. Cavu Mar 15 #71
GoldwatersSoul Mar 15 #74
R. Cavu Mar 15 #76
GoldwatersSoul Mar 15 #77
KittyCatIdiots Mar 15 #78
R. Cavu Mar 15 #79
joefriday6 Mar 15 #64
GoldwatersSoul Mar 15 #68
jh4freedom Mar 15 #82
GoldwatersSoul Mar 18 #84
joefriday6 Mar 15 #83
GoldwatersSoul Mar 18 #85
joefriday6 Mar 18 #87
GoldwatersSoul Mar 18 #88
joefriday6 Mar 18 #89

Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 11:21 AM

1. It makes the Demos and primitives feel better, temporarily.

Which in turn for a short while calms them down enough so they're not out hitting people wearing red caps or slashing tires. For a short while.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 11:27 AM

2. Manafort filed five false IRS returns and hid foreign bank accounts

As much as I dislike the IRS, I can recognise that allowing individuals to file false returns without punishment undermines the taxation system.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 11:30 AM

4. They were looking for Collusion weren't they?

And still ended up empty handed.

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Response to bruiserboy (Reply #4)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:08 PM

17. That wasn't the question

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #17)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:10 PM

18. You and others are trying to tie Trump to Russia,

So that is part of the equation.

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Response to bruiserboy (Reply #18)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 02:04 PM

37. Please show me a SINGLE post of mine supporting Trump and Russian Collusion

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #37)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 02:13 PM

38. Well warrior if (you haven't) i apologize in advance

But every single post in the past year from lefties have accused and prayed for collusion.

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Response to bruiserboy (Reply #4)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:17 PM

21. Sort of. Manafort was in trouble long before Mueller came along.

Mueller sort of took over an investigation already underway, but this case was being made anyway. Mueller didn’t find these crimes in the course of his investigation, he tried to use an already existing investigation as leverage against a potential witness. His supporters are now pretending like this justifies his investigation.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #2)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:00 PM

11. Perhaps....

His actions arent much different from Corporations holding money in foreign accounts and repatriating when taxation is most opportune.
Im not so sure that the costs of prosecution and incarceration wont surpass the potential tax revenue that could have been received. So aside from the nebulous idea of not wanting to erode our tax system doesnt seem to be a lot of benefit.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 11:29 AM

3. It gives the left a sense they won a prize,

When in fact it is only a booby prize, they wanted Trump But ended up with a conviction other than what they wanted.

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Response to bruiserboy (Reply #3)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 11:51 AM

10. Lefty settling for sloppy seconds again!

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 11:40 AM

5. "Orange Man Bad".

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 11:48 AM

6. It may backfire on the dems

I would bet there are a lot of people who see this for what it is. A vindictive prosecution with overly harsh punishment of someone ONLY because they, the dems, are obsessed at hating President Trump and can't help themselves to satisfy their blood lust.

In a way you can say what they are doing to Manafort may cause many swing voters to be turned-off enough to not consider voting for a dem.

So, in a messed up kind of way, what they are doing to Manafort may make the U.S. better by turning people away from the dems.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 11:48 AM

7. the same way every shoplifter and pickpocket must be punished

to set an example to other pickpockets, shoplifters, and similar nonviolent crime as committed by manafort.

rule of law.

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Response to rampartb (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:01 PM

13. Agree 100%.

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Response to rampartb (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:02 PM

14. Hmmmm.....

so how many Americans are foreign lobbyists that need to be reminded of their resposnibility to pay taxes. And by your theory we should not usd any discretion as to prosecution. Hence more minorities in prison.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #14)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:54 PM

25. face it, goldy, manafort's plea is "not guilty due to affluenza."

he got off easy, and will be pardoned on trumps last day.

manafort had every advantage, and used it to make the world worse ...



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Response to rampartb (Reply #25)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 02:35 PM

39. Again...

Manafort is an example. Not the heart of my concerns. How is his incarceration and prosecution making our lives better?

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #14)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 01:27 PM

35. This is nothing new; when the president was named Clinton

and the Special Counsel was Ken Starr, there were allegations that Bill and Hillary Clinton had pressured a business associate named David Hale into providing an illegal $300,000 loan to Susan McDougal, the Clintons' partner in the Whitewater land deal. The Whitewater land deal had nothing to do with Bill Clinton’s presidency or his administration. It had happened in 1979 and Clinton wasn’t elected until 1992.

The Clintons were never charged with any crime but the investigations of them led to fifteen other people being convicted of more than 40 crimes, including Arkansas Governor Jim Guy Tucker, who resigned from office.
Whitewater Convictions
Jim Guy Tucker: Governor of Arkansas at the time, resigned (fraud, 3 counts)
John Haley: attorney for Jim Guy Tucker (tax evasion)
William J. Marks, Sr.: Jim Guy Tucker's business partner (conspiracy)
Stephen Smith: former Governor Clinton aide (conspiracy to misapply funds). Bill Clinton pardoned.
Webster Hubbell: Clinton political supporter; U.S. Associate Attorney General; Rose Law Firm partner (embezzlement, fraud)
Jim McDougal: banker, Clinton political supporter: (18 felonies, varied)
Susan McDougal: Clinton political supporter (multiple frauds). Bill Clinton pardoned.
David Hale: banker, self-proclaimed Clinton political supporter: (conspiracy, fraud)
Neal Ainley: Perry County Bank president (embezzled bank funds for Clinton campaign)
Chris Wade: Whitewater real estate broker (multiple loan fraud). Bill Clinton pardoned.
Larry Kuca: Madison real estate agent (multiple loan fraud)
Robert W. Palmer: Madison appraiser (conspiracy). Bill Clinton pardoned.
John Latham: Madison Bank CEO (bank fraud)
Eugene Fitzhugh: Whitewater defendant (multiple bribery)
Charles Matthews: Whitewater defendant (bribery)

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Response to jh4freedom (Reply #35)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 02:36 PM

40. So much smoke on the Clintons...

and it seems so much evidence was simply gone. Strange circumstances there.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #40)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 04:20 PM

50. You missed the point

Clinton associates went to jail for the exact same crimes that Manafort was sentenced for.

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Response to jh4freedom (Reply #50)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 02:37 PM

55. And what did it do...

to help the US??

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #55)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 05:37 PM

81. It took some white collar criminals

Off the streets and it served as a deterrent to others who might try the same crimes.

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Response to jh4freedom (Reply #81)

Mon Mar 18, 2019, 03:52 PM

86. There is no deterrent...

and served only as a way for liberals to count coup. Strange enough since the "crimes" have little to do with politics.

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Response to rampartb (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:20 PM

22. I agree as well. If you dont prosecute crimes when you catch them,

People will think it’s okay to shoplift, illegally avoid taxes, or send and receive classified information on an unsecured server, because even if they are caught, there won’t be any consequences.

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Response to DavesNotHere (Reply #22)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 02:37 PM

41. Make sense...

why wasnt it important 10 years ago when they caught him????

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #41)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:12 PM

44. Good question. Nt

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Response to rampartb (Reply #7)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 01:29 PM

36. Agreed.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 11:49 AM

8. Perhaps

it sends a message that entitled rich guys can end up doing the same amount of time as an un-entitled stoner with less than an ounce of pot....

Tax evasion, witness tampering...those are mob crimes too...Manafort's a big boy he made his choices to steal from the feds and the rest of us by not paying taxes and then trying to tamper with witnesses to get what he wanted out of the justice system.

The penal code isn't just about safeguarding the public, it's also about punishing criminals who cheat and steal their way through society.

It makes us all better because it shows we are all equal under the law.

Maybe that's just my personal bias showing as I just don't like thieving bastards regardless of what party they belong to.

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Response to nolens volens (Reply #8)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:07 PM

15. Great...

I dont care about Manafort per se. I just distrust government entities seeking the ruination of a 70 year old man. I am trying to find value in it. I look for win-win situatiins. Nash Equilibriums.

For example. I would rather see a person who committed an offense like Manaforts an oportunity to commute a sentence in exchange for a healthy kidney or the Lobe of their liver. Perhaps the promise of their heart at death. Prison doesnt benefit anyone in America except to keep the violent away from society. Otherwise you are stockpiling potential.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #15)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:44 PM

23. But we do

imprison old men regularly, mob bosses, white collar criminals a lot of them don't get caught until they are no longer the kinds of men they were in their youth.

It doesn't excuse their crimes and it sends a message to others that your final days might not be spent as you had hoped if you take the same path.

I don't disagree that we are long overdue for some appropriate prison reform, but if we are still locking up kids for dope I'm good with Manafort taking his last breaths in confinement.

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Response to nolens volens (Reply #23)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:52 PM

24. As I noted elsewhere...

while he broke laws. He is a first time non-violent offender. I also dont have a lot of faith in the government to act ethically or fairly when they are looking to condemn someone as a message to others.

Manafort is just another pawn. He will die in prison...maybe. Had he not been connected to the president, I doubt his crimes would have ever been considered. Thr fact that they knew about them but did not presecute them makes me wonder why. If they are so crucial today' they werent 10 years ago.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #24)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 01:02 PM

32. All good points

I look at him like the Martha Stewart case sort of...

A lot of people doing the same thing pay a fine and walk away, but like the Harvey Keitel character said in the movie "National Treasure" someone always has to go to jail. Lots of times that someone isn't necessarily dangerous or even the most egregious, what they are is the more famous or infamous one caught. Thus an example to be made.

Your last paragraph is interesting because I've also considered if this is something being done to see if a pardon can be coaxed out of Trump and used as a political point in the next election.

As I said I don't care if Manafort is jailed, but I could be convinced a multi-million dollar fine that strips the wealth from his family is a better sentence because the one thing rich folks hate more than prison it's being poor.

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Response to nolens volens (Reply #32)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:34 PM

45. "a multi-million dollar fine that strips the wealth from his family"

Making entire families pay for the crimes of one member of one?

Uh...No.

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Response to Nostrings (Reply #45)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:38 PM

46. If the wealth is proven

to have been acquired as the result of criminal tax evasion and corrupt practices it's been done many, many, many times in this country.

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Response to nolens volens (Reply #46)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 03:50 PM

47. Thats a stipulation not originally made by you, and a mighty big 'if'.

And, it isn't much of a mask for you wanting to see "rich folks" suffer for crimes they didn't commit:

"but I could be convinced a multi-million dollar fine that strips the wealth from his family is a better sentence because the one thing rich folks hate more than prison it's being poor."


You could be convinced that a huge fine that strips the wealth from his family is better than he himself being responsible for whatever crimes he may have committed, because rich people hate being poor.

Thats just plain disgusting.

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Response to Nostrings (Reply #47)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 08:17 AM

53. hahahahaha.....nt

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 11:50 AM

9. I don't speak German*

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Response to Horsefeathers (Reply #9)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:15 PM

20. I speak a little...

Offen die hoschen mein fraulein.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #20)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:56 PM

27. No, I'm Inga from Sveden.

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Response to Carlos W Bush (Reply #27)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:57 PM

30. I could brush up on Nordic languages...

I am equal opportunity for my debauchery.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:00 PM

12. He worked for Trump. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Trumpsters are supposed to feel guilty for Manafort's sins and tards live for trying to make Trumpsters feel guilty. Of something. Anything.

That's what they do. And if the fraud from some basically random person makes them feeeeeeeel good, then gosh darnit, let them feel good.

Did I answer your question?

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)


Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:11 PM

19. It's cute how morons believe that proves Trump needs impeached............

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:54 PM

26. Do laws apply to the rich?

And to rich connected conservatives?

Asking for the 99%

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Response to Salaam (Reply #26)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:56 PM

28. Sure....

then again. The same could be asked as to why some laws exist for anyone? If the broken laws are so important, why were they not important 10 years ago???

Asking for those who dont give a fuck about party or ideology.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #28)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:58 PM

31. Are you saying that there should be no laws against financial fraud?

Or are you asking why no one looked at Manafort and Trump before now?

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Response to Salaam (Reply #31)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 02:40 PM

42. I am asking....

if Manaforts crimes were so egregious why were they ignored when first uncovered a decade ago. If our concern is to protect the rule of law and punish criminals....why now???

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #42)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 05:23 PM

52. I agree.

My opinion is that he was ignored by prosecutors who like to prosecute drug offenses and ignore white collar crime.

Shame on the prosecutors and the AGs who made the decisions.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 12:57 PM

29. He was a criminal and fewer of them walking around makes it better for everyone

When he was making money illegally, others were losing it.

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Response to Badsamm (Reply #29)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 01:02 PM

33. How so???

If he had a fraudulent bank loan... someone was making money. Albeit with greater risk. Tax fraud means the governmrnt did not take in money they believed they were owed. It isnt clear how much that amount really was due.

Since that money was paid by a foreign government. It is likely he paid taxes to Ukraine which means had he filed he could have deducted that against what he owed the US. His crime was he didnt share the fact that he earned it with the IRS. Ever sold a car??? Even a junk car???

If you didnt declare that on your taxes. YOU are a criminal too..

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 01:13 PM

34. I think its important to prosecute criminal behavior as a deterrent

To others who might try to engage in similar behaviors.
Mr. Manafort PLEADED GUILTY to Conspiracy to defraud the United States and witness tampering. A jury of his peers also convicted him of bank fraud and tax fraud.
He has to pay $24.8 million in restitution, a $50,000 fine AND remain in federal prison where he has been for the last six months.

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Response to jh4freedom (Reply #34)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 02:41 PM

43. I am not arguing...

Manaforts guilt or innocence. I am not arguing thst he should not be punished. My question ks what good did it do for the American people?

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 04:06 PM

48. A Republic doesn't function well without rule of law

It's honestly as simple as that. If the laws only apply sometimes, then we're on the path to a banana republic. I'm not saying we are one or even close, but once you get that erosion under way, republics tend to go to bad places, filled with corruption and misdealing. If the laws apply to the poor and not the rich, we're not an equal society. There's this insidious idea in our country that financial crimes are fairly benign. "White collar crime." Almost sounds quaint. But someone is always getting fucked somewhere, else they'd not be crimes.

You ask why not ten years ago. You'd have to ask the people in charge then.

Marijuana's fairly harmless. How many people did we put away for that and for how long?

Conservatives have long said, "Rule of law! Rule of law!" Especially with the Clintons. We're in a very weird place when it suddenly becomes, "Well, who really got hurt anyway . . ."

I tend to agree, btw. The Clintons are corrupt as hell. Everyone knows it, but D.C. and how our political power structure works has long made them untouchable. I really didn't want Trump to win, but my silver lining is that we're finally rid of those two. They were a cancer in the party.

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Response to Prismmonkey (Reply #48)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 04:18 PM

49. Let me help you...

First...his tax crime was tax fraud. Not evasion. They generally do that when the person hides income but the IRS cant necessarily prove they are owed anything.

Second, Bank Fraud. He lied on lending formd. He didnt steal any money and he didnt declare bankruptcy on the loan he acquired.

Crimes are not always against society.

Seems to me the reason he was prosecuted now is who is in charge now.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #49)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 04:22 PM

51. Do you think you or I would get away with that?

One audit and we'd be gone.

Prosecutorial discretion is a thing. It's not great, but it exists, has always existed, always will be until the people do something about it. Complaining about it now is thin gruel. The best way to not go to prison is to not break the law.

Think of it like social media. Don't leave a history of stupid shit, and you largely won't get into trouble. People say stupid shit, then five or ten years later it catches up. Who'd have thought.

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Response to Prismmonkey (Reply #51)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 02:42 PM

56. Dont be naive...

had he not been connected to the president the discretion would have been more considerable.

I simply consider this particular proposition to be mindless. The crimes were committed. No problem. Why did they suddenly become important???

Since they Re so important now. What has benefitted the US Based on this prosecution??

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #56)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 03:03 PM

59. Who's being naive?

Political discretion has always been thus, and thus it will always be. Does no good whining about it. And, "Well, he clearly and obviously and hilariously broke major laws, but hey, why prosecute . . ." I mean, you're honestly going to make that argument in a republic where rule of law should kind of be a thing?

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Response to Prismmonkey (Reply #59)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 03:14 PM

61. My question...

political discretion would not have played a part 10 years ago. Why are political considerations in play now? In a republic political considerations should not be a part of justice.

I didnt say not to prosecute. That is a strawman. I asked what is the value of the prosecution. I would suggest very little aside from political considerations.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #61)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 03:22 PM

63. Break the law, get punished

That has intrinsic value in a republic with rule of law.

I agree, political motivation shouldn't be involved.

But in our system, it is. Both sides do it. Often and with great relish.

Just seems like thin gruel to complain about it now. And Manafort deserves prison. His crimes have far reaching implications, especially in places like the Ukraine where he meddled hard in their democracy. You wouldn't like it if a Manafort figure came screwing with us.

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Response to Prismmonkey (Reply #63)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 04:39 PM

67. Still with the strawman...

no one has said Manafort did not deserve punishment. No one had said that should not include prison or fines. I want to know why, beyond the platitudes of the noble Republic, it makes sense to seek to burn him down. Two Federal and One state prosecution? THAT rarely happens. I am still trying to figure out what the rationale behind all of that is.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #67)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 05:33 PM

80. People went looking and they found

Ever assume, always, that someone will someday come looking. Then don't give them anything.

Pretty sound advice for us all.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 08:43 AM

54. On its face,

You break the law, you’re likely to go to jail.

The rub is DOJ already knew he was a criminal and declined to prosecute until Trump entered the calculus

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Response to R. Cavu (Reply #54)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 02:51 PM

57. OK.

but how did it improve the country or help the people.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #57)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 03:07 PM

60. Two ways

Ask the guy who didn’t commit massive tax fraud (me) if criminals should be jail if it makes a difference. I say yes it does. I didn’t commit the crime, I paid my taxes, so eff him. He cheated us all.

Now ask the guy who’s about to commit massive fraud if he’s any way deterred

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Response to R. Cavu (Reply #60)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 04:35 PM

66. Almost everyone has committed tax fraud...

you just thought it insignificant. Or you forgot. But you did.

I bet it doesnt slow down even one single instance.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #66)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 04:48 PM

70. Maybe we need to define tax fraud and distinguish it

From, say, tax cheating.

The difference is the complexity and conspiracy.

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Response to R. Cavu (Reply #70)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 04:52 PM

72. Regardless....

they are crimes that if we are going to be purists on. Must be prosecuted and a punishment meted out.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #72)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 04:53 PM

73. Just like my last response. Re: goal posts

We are not purists.

We are, my friend, attempting to form a more perfect union.

Thank you.

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Response to R. Cavu (Reply #73)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 04:57 PM

75. Platitudes...

and bullshit. Why not just say, No real value except for a few that seek to count political coup. Ha ha ha.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 02:57 PM

58. The fact that tax cheats go to jail discourages tax cheats

Tell me more about the "deterrent effect" value of the death penalty.

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Response to karmamax (Reply #58)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 03:17 PM

62. OK...

so a tax cheat is in jail. Did you ever get a dollar that you found, was given to you, you won etc??? If you didnt claim it. You too belong in prison.

There is no real deterrent with the death penalty.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #62)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 04:15 PM

65. So, no difference between

A gift of literally one dollar

And offshoring some 60 million got from questionable gains at best.


Seems like you got your answer to your OP.

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Response to R. Cavu (Reply #65)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 04:43 PM

69. Only

if I believe as you do that there is value in jailing all tax cheats. I dont. I think many laws that are proclaimed as pillars of a law abiding republic are bullshit.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #69)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 04:51 PM

71. Well now youve moved the goal posts

You’ve moved from acceptable standards and practices to perfection or absolution as the standard bearer.

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Response to R. Cavu (Reply #71)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 04:55 PM

74. Not at all...

I simply see the example made of Manafort as a political game. His crime is punishable and I simply ask why is has value to Americans outside of the platitudes of Equal Justice etc.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #74)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 05:01 PM

76. You just answered your own question.

up the threads someone said we don’t atenuate a murder conviction become the offender was a nice guy.

Just as murdering a person who is a complete asshole is not a mitigating circumstance.

Just as we don’t pick and choose our crimes to prosecute.

And frankly why the president has pardon power because anyone with half a brain knows why he’s in jail right now. Specifically him. Specifically now.

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Response to R. Cavu (Reply #76)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 05:04 PM

77. The problem....

we DO pick the crimes we prosecute. The Hillary Clinton ordeal or saga is more apt, proves that.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #77)


Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #77)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 05:10 PM

79. What you and I are disputing is not the political crime for lack of a better word

We’re disputing the rule of law.

You phrased the argument in those platitudes. So that is your answer.

No one is blind to the bullshit.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 03:50 PM

64. Punishments for violations of the law on are not exacted on whether or not the lawbreaker makes the

US or its people better, worse or leaves them the same. Said punishments are made because of the violation of the law and the prescriptive penalty for the violation. An otherwise nice guy who murders his neighbor is not going to have his sentence attenuated because he was a model citizen.

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Response to joefriday6 (Reply #64)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 04:41 PM

68. So what you are saying....

is that sentencing Paul Manafort has no intrinsic or extrinsic value whatsoever.

So the absorption of the costs of three trials for zero benefit is good for whst reason????

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #68)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 05:50 PM

82. One of the primary reasons for all criminal law

Is to act as a deterent. It benefits the society as a whole when everybody has to play by the same rules and rule-breakers are punished.

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Response to jh4freedom (Reply #82)

Mon Mar 18, 2019, 03:48 PM

84. Ha....

It would be nice if it were true.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #68)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 09:30 PM

83. The extrinsic value is that it will/may discourage others from trying to be like Manfort. Is good

because the criminal will pay for his crime. The cost of the trial and that proceeding it makes no difference. Under your scheme people would commit crimes without worrying about the consequences.

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Response to joefriday6 (Reply #83)

Mon Mar 18, 2019, 03:50 PM

85. People who commit crimes almost never..

consider the consequences.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #85)

Mon Mar 18, 2019, 04:14 PM

87. Well,having no punishments for said crimes certainly wouldn't make them fearful for future endeavors

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Response to joefriday6 (Reply #87)

Mon Mar 18, 2019, 04:43 PM

88. Who argued that crime should not be punished??

I only noted that some crimes have no real benefit in pursuing persecution.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #88)

Mon Mar 18, 2019, 05:27 PM

89. Except disobedience of existing laws and dissuasion from repeat of same crimes or others ancillary

to them.. On misdemeanors I might favor your position, but not felonies.

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