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Thu Mar 14, 2019, 10:28 PM

"Something Was Extraordinarily Wrong": Doomed Boeing Swung Up And Down Hundreds Of Feet

One glimpse at the terrifying trajectory of the Ethiopian Airlines jetliner that crashed on Sunday shortly after takeoff from Addis Ababa and it is clear something was dreadfully wrong from the start.

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As The New York Times notes, controllers also observed that the aircraft, a new Boeing 737 Max 8, was oscillating up and down by hundreds of feet - a sign that something was extraordinarily wrong.



Pilots are reportedly abuzz over publicly available radar data that showed the aircraft had accelerated far beyond what is considered standard practice, for reasons that remain unclear.



https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03-14/something-was-extraordinarily-wrong-doomed-boeing-swung-and-down-hundreds-feet

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Arrow 7 replies Author Time Post
Reply "Something Was Extraordinarily Wrong": Doomed Boeing Swung Up And Down Hundreds Of Feet (Original post)
Let it go Mar 14 OP
Nephrite Mar 14 #1
Spitfire Mar 14 #2
oflguy Mar 15 #6
MumblyPeg Mar 14 #3
Spitfire Mar 14 #4
def_con5 Mar 15 #7
oldenuff35 Mar 15 #5

Response to Let it go (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 10:52 PM

1. That would scare the heck out of me as a flyer.

Worst i ever experienced was a flight landing at O'hare that hit so hard landing the entire jet bounced.

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Response to Let it go (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 11:17 PM

2. At this point I honestly don't know -

I'm a pilot, but not an air transport pilot.
I do have many friends that are Southwest Airlines pilots that fly the 737 Max 8.
They have all told me the same thing - "it's a training failure".
The MCAS system on that airplane simply drives the elevator trim tab, and in the case of a MCAS failure it is simply a runaway trim situation.
All the pilots have to do the case of a MCAS failure is turn off the MCAS trim system and fly the aircraft manually - something every pilot in the USA trains for.

I'm not saying that there isn't an inherent mechanical problem in the design of the MCAS hardware/software, just that it can be turned off in the case of a failure and the aircraft can be flown manually easily.
This is assuming that the MCAS is at the heart of the problem - I guess we will have to wait and see what the 'black boxes' have to say....

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Response to Spitfire (Reply #2)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 12:52 AM

6. This is what happens when computer programmers think they know how to fly a plane

Remember this "low pass" demonstration of the first "fly by wire" A320 Airbus airliner at an airshow? At first they tried to crucify the pilot, who vehemently protested that the aircraft did not respond to his attempts to add power and raise the nose. While watching video taken at the crash site, he happened to notice the "black box" being recovered from the smoldering scene had a different paint scheme on it than the one analyzed for the investigation.

Turned out, the substituted black box hid the real cause of the crash, that the onboard computer was programmed with a "landing mode" that prevented the pilot's input to climb. When the aircraft got below a certain altitude, the computer assumed the aircraft was landing and took over the process.

I have observed several fatal crashes by airliners in the past several years where the pilots lost control of the airplane because the onboard computer took the pilot out of the cockpit. One that comes to mind is the crash when a clogged pitot tube caused the aircraft to stall, resulting in a crash into the ocean. The pilots fought the aircraft all the way down, not knowing it was the autopilot causing the loss of control.

Manufacturers need to stop trying to out-think the pilots and let them fly the plane instead of computer programmers, who are not pilots.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=first+fly+by+wire+airliner+crash&view=detail&mid=D750A64B46A68A3324FAD750A64B46A68A3324FA&FORM=VIRE

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Response to Let it go (Original post)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 11:33 PM

3. This isn't really as telling as it should be. It makes me ask why are they

showing climb and descent rates from a radar return? These aren't very accurate at all for one thing, and not of much relevance without actual altitude readings to go along with them, and the REASON for the rate changes. We need to see the FDR data that includes the actual altitude readings, or this doesn't tell us anything.
I'd even go so far as to call it irresponsible to release this without the rest of the data.
Remember, these are climb and descent RATES... not how much the plane rose or fell, and it's from radar returns, not transponder readings or FDR data readings that are more accurate.
Accuracy concerns aside, if you look at the chart, it shows the plane climbing the entire time with one approx 15 second span where it was descending, and a 1500f/s descent rate for only about 3-4 seconds (and that doesn't mean it fell 1500ft, that means it descended roughly 75-100ft in 3-4 seconds), calming down to about 500f/s for the remaining 10-15 sec span (which would mean it descended about another 100ft in the next 10-15 seconds). This could simply be pilot input correcting for something as simple as an underspeed or stall warning condition.
Obviously, something was very wrong, but this speculation stuff really needs to stop with the media. This chart will seriously mislead most of the public who don't understand what they are looking at and where it came from.
I've even heard pilots reporting "moderate" turbulence at the time... and in the airline world, "moderate" is bad enough to scare the absolute shit out of a regular passenger, but that doesn't make it dangerous to modern airliners in any way. It's just scary as shit for a passenger.
I really do think the media needs to just stop with this stuff, they have no idea what the hell they are talking and speculating about, and they don't even have accurate data to use in order to discuss the topic... and it's getting people all wound up to be scared of something, but they don't know what to be scared of... so they picked the Boeing software as their boogy-man and lit the torches already.
they could be right, but it's highly irresponsible to be doing this right now.

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Response to MumblyPeg (Reply #3)

Thu Mar 14, 2019, 11:38 PM

4. I agree totally!

The two subjects that the 'talking heads' on TV usually get wrong 95% of the time are about aircraft and firearms!

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Response to MumblyPeg (Reply #3)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 07:47 AM

7. Excellent point

The data by itself doesn't tell us much it's just change data.

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Response to Let it go (Original post)

Fri Mar 15, 2019, 12:32 AM

5. Spitfire and mumbly, good posts. I hope some of our guests in here read them.

First rule, do not forget to fly the damned plane.

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