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Tue Oct 8, 2019, 08:49 AM

Were the Kurds fighting a proxy war against ISIS on behalf of the US?

That's what I've been reading in the press. I guess the Kurds would've just willingly let ISIS slaughter them if the US weren't against ISIS, right? Because apparently their only motivation for fighting ISIS was to help the US.

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Reply Were the Kurds fighting a proxy war against ISIS on behalf of the US? (Original post)
foia Tuesday OP
okletstalk Tuesday #1
Banshee 3 Actual Tuesday #2
okletstalk Tuesday #3
Banshee 3 Actual Tuesday #4
okletstalk Tuesday #6
700WinMag Tuesday #12
okletstalk Tuesday #24
700WinMag Tuesday #35
quad489 Wednesday #50
700WinMag Thursday #51
Banshee 3 Actual Tuesday #14
okletstalk Tuesday #11
Banshee 3 Actual Tuesday #16
okletstalk Tuesday #18
Banshee 3 Actual Tuesday #20
okletstalk Tuesday #22
Banshee 3 Actual Tuesday #23
okletstalk Tuesday #25
Banshee 3 Actual Tuesday #27
okletstalk Tuesday #29
oflguy Tuesday #44
oflguy Tuesday #5
okletstalk Tuesday #7
Charlie Mike Tuesday #8
okletstalk Tuesday #9
Charlie Mike Tuesday #10
okletstalk Tuesday #15
Banshee 3 Actual Tuesday #19
Charlie Mike Tuesday #21
700WinMag Tuesday #13
okletstalk Tuesday #26
700WinMag Tuesday #36
okletstalk Tuesday #39
700WinMag Wednesday #48
Banshee 3 Actual Tuesday #17
jh4freedom Tuesday #32
700WinMag Tuesday #37
jh4freedom Tuesday #38
700WinMag Wednesday #49
Banshee 3 Actual Wednesday #47
oflguy Tuesday #28
okletstalk Tuesday #30
oflguy Tuesday #33
okletstalk Tuesday #41
oflguy Tuesday #42
okletstalk Tuesday #45
jh4freedom Tuesday #31
oflguy Tuesday #34
jh4freedom Tuesday #40
oflguy Tuesday #43
Badsamm Tuesday #46

Response to foia (Original post)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 11:12 AM

1. ISIS probably wouldn't even have existed if it hadn't been for the U.S. invading Iraq

They did the grunt work in defeating an enemy we help to create, and they deserve our loyalty for it.

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #1)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 11:17 AM

2. EXCEPT ISIS was founded in 1999 BEFORE we invaded Iraq. Who was POTUS in 99?

The group was founded in 1999 by Jordanian Salafi jihadist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi under the name Jamāʻat al-Tawḥīd wa-al-Jihād while in Afghanistan.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/uploads/Documents/pubs/ResearchNote_20_Zelin.pdf

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Response to Banshee 3 Actual (Reply #2)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 11:24 AM

3. How much territory did they control back before the Iraq invasion? Not much.

As an unintended consequence they became more powerful because of the invasion and started taking territory. The Kurds helped to defeat this more powerful ISIS and they deserve our loyalty.

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #3)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 11:30 AM

4. Whine ALL you want about being wrong ISIS Existed 3 years BEFORE we invaded Iraq

And Bill Clinton was President then

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Response to Banshee 3 Actual (Reply #4)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 11:34 AM

6. Big deal! The invasion helped to strengthen them and made them a stronger enemy.

That is my point in post #1. I'm not an expert on when the group that became ISIS was founded, but I do know what caused them to become a stronger military force and that was the invasion of Iraq.

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #6)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 11:58 AM

12. " I'm not an expert"

Point made.

But in other news dealing with terrorist organizations is like playing whack a mole.

Invading Iraq would not have changed the fact that there would still be terrorists and they still would be doing terrorist things.

I don't hear you saying that we need to go to other countries to rid them of their roach problems.

Why stop at Syria?

Hmmmmmmmmm...

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Response to 700WinMag (Reply #12)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 12:16 PM

24. Wow, you have missed the point completely

What makes you think I would support going into other countries. I was against going in Iraq in the first place because of these types of unintended consequences. I'm just saying don't abruptly abandon those that have been your allies.

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #24)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 04:03 PM

35. Bingo!

"What makes you think I would support going into other countries."

You now know why you are a partisan hack!

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Response to 700WinMag (Reply #35)

Wed Oct 9, 2019, 09:17 AM

50. Some coward alerted on you............

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Response to quad489 (Reply #50)

Thu Oct 10, 2019, 10:10 AM

51. And lefty...

Thinks righty has a monopoly on snowflakes.

Im sure the person I was speaking of was not the alerter. I mean, he just doesn't seem like the type...

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #6)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 12:00 PM

14. whining again? ISIS was formed in 1999 When Bill Clinton was President

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Response to Banshee 3 Actual (Reply #2)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 11:54 AM

11. Actually, from your own source ISIS didn't really become ISIS until after the invasion

The JTWJ was a forerunner of ISIS, but what we would come to know as the Islamic State didn't get going until after the war began.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/uploads/Documents/pubs/ResearchNote_20_Zelin.pdf

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #11)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 12:01 PM

16. Name change is same group, whine and spin all you want it was formed in 1999

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Response to Banshee 3 Actual (Reply #16)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 12:04 PM

18. When did ISIS get stronger and begin taking territory?

That's the important question.

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #18)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 12:05 PM

20. Whine and spin all you want- ISIS Formed in 1999 by Zarqawi in Afghanistan

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Response to Banshee 3 Actual (Reply #20)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 12:09 PM

22. Doesn't matter. The invasion of Iraq helped them become a stronger enemy

The Kurds would not have had to help fight them had they not become what they(ISIS) became because of the invasion. The Kurds deserve our loyalty. That is what this thread was originally about.

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #22)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 12:13 PM

23. The original lefty claim was the Invasion caused ISIS which has been clearly shown to be a lie

Since that was pointed out there seems to be Lefty whineyrage about acknowledging Bill Clinton was POTUS when ISIS Originally formed

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Response to Banshee 3 Actual (Reply #23)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 12:21 PM

25. You have proved nothing, and your own link supports that you have failed in your claim

There was a forerunner to the Islamic State but that is all. The fighting force we now know as ISIS has an entirely different leader than the group it evolved from. Read your own link.

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #25)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 01:34 PM

27. My Link shows Zarqawi Formed the group in 1999, you continually whine it doesnt count

because the name changed and Zaqawi was killed in 2006.

I suppose you also say Marilyn Monroe is a different person than Norma Jean Mortenson

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Response to Banshee 3 Actual (Reply #27)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 03:05 PM

29. The ranks of the group grew as a result of the insurgency in Iraq

Because they became stronger their mission evolved into creating an Islamic State, something they couldn't have done with their smaller numbers. They then became ISAL and then ISIS to reflect this change. It's very unlikely that they would have become the fighting force that they did if it hadn't been for the invasion, and that is the point. While you are arguing about the name and trying to tie it to Bill Clinton you are totally missing the point.

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #1)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 05:56 PM

44. ISIS is just a tag

They are Muslim terrorists. Calling terrorists ISIS is like calling water a wave.

Wait long enough and another one washes ashore

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Response to foia (Original post)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 11:32 AM

5. Suddenly Corey Booker is a war hawk

I love it

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Response to oflguy (Reply #5)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 11:38 AM

7. Not wanting to leave allies in the lurch does not make one a war hawk

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #7)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 11:42 AM

8. You never cared about them before.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #8)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 11:44 AM

9. I certainly did care about the Kurds

They are the reason we didn't have to do the dirty work of fighting ISIS ourselves. I appreciate them and think they deserve our loyalty.

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #9)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 11:46 AM

10. Yet, there's no hair pulling outrage when Obama allowed Turkey to attack them.

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Response to Charlie Mike (Reply #10)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 12:01 PM

15. I hated it every time we screwed the Kurds

I hated it when Bush 1 left them hanging and Sadam Hussien killed them.
I hated it when Bill Clinton made deals to use Turkish bases for the no fly zone over Iraq and part of the deal was that Trukey could attack the Kurds from time to time.
I hated ever time we left the Kurds to die.
Therefore, you will find no inconsistency when I speak out about leaving them again.

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #15)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 12:04 PM

19. Yet the only plan the Left has is provide air cover and troops perpetually

Kurds cover the border areas of Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria. so basically we need to stay in Kurdish areas protecting them for decades

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #15)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 12:08 PM

21. But never enough for hair pulling outrage.

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #9)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 11:59 AM

13. So...

You supported the Iraq invasion?

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Response to 700WinMag (Reply #13)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 12:22 PM

26. No I never supported the Iraq invasion!

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #26)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 04:05 PM

36. Oh...

So you didn't really support the Kurds then.

Huh.

Didn't see that coming.

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Response to 700WinMag (Reply #36)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 05:21 PM

39. Wow, you are so clever...

In case you didn't know, helping the Kurds wasn't the reason for going into Iraq either of the 2 times we went there. Our going into Iraq wasn't about the Kurds at all. The Kurds had been fighting Iraq since the fall of the Ottoman Empire. They were the enemy of our enemy, and as a result it was only natural that they helped us and we accepted their help. I support them for their help. We left them rather high and dry under Bush 1. I don't think we should do that again after they helped us with ISIS.

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #39)

Wed Oct 9, 2019, 08:32 AM

48. Duh...

"helping the Kurds wasn't the reason for going into Iraq"

And I am sure you were just as outraged then as you are now.

Now that I think of it I do remember all the lefty's protesting that they wanted to go to war to help the Kurds.

Oh wait. No. Thats not what they were protesting.

Oops.

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #7)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 12:02 PM

17. So we provide Air Cover for the next 100 years to the Kurds?

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Response to Banshee 3 Actual (Reply #17)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 03:35 PM

32. It shouldnt take 100 years to defeat ISIS

How about 1 year of concerted effort? Cutting and running makes Trump look weak because Turkey will now get to wipe out their enemy and our ally, the Kurdish fighters against ISIS of the Syrian Defense Force.

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Response to jh4freedom (Reply #32)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 04:06 PM

37. So...

We should send all off our troops the the ME so we can eradicate terrorism?

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Response to 700WinMag (Reply #37)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 04:59 PM

38. No

No one said anything about sending all of our troops to the Middle East. We currently have about 1,000 troops in Northeast Syria where the Kurds are fighting with us against ISIS. 1,000 troops is 0.0007% of the U.S. military but those 1,000 make a big difference to the Kurdish Syrian Defense Force.

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Response to jh4freedom (Reply #38)

Wed Oct 9, 2019, 08:37 AM

49. I am confused...

So you only want to help some people i some places when it fits your agenda?

Bring the troops home.

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Response to jh4freedom (Reply #32)

Wed Oct 9, 2019, 01:18 AM

47. Turks, clausewitless are the ones attacking the Kurds

To effectively protect the Kurds we would have to establish no fly zones over the Areas of Iraq, Turkey, Iran and Syria that they live in. Even then a No fly doesn't stop ground forces from attacking them unless we include Close Air Support to ground forces attacking the Kurds

Effectively you now are at war with Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran

Whats you plan Eisenhower?

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #7)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 01:36 PM

28. So what are you saying Oldstalk? Are you telling us you want to go to war with Turkey?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #28)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 03:16 PM

30. No, I don't want to go to war. No one does! That's a silly question.

What are you saying? Let Turkey dictate how we treat an ally? No one wants to go to war, but sometimes if you have gained ground in a war that someone has helped you fight you shouldn't risk going backwards, especially if it hurts your allies. There's a lot to consider in this situation to keep us out of war, and to not lose what has already been gained. Unfortunately Trump may not be the best man for the job since he tends to use only his "great wisdom" or however it is he said it recently.



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Response to okletstalk (Reply #30)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 03:52 PM

33. gained ground ?

There are no boundaries in this conflict with Muslims. This is a religious war. There is no such thing as "gaining ground." You either kill a terrorist or you don't, regardless of where he is.

The question is, do the terrorists understand they will pay a price for their actions? Trump's job is to make it clear to them, no matter where they are, that they will suffer if they commit terrorist acts against us.

We cannot kill every terrorist. We cannot gain ground to defeat Islam. It is everywhere, even within our own country. They have infiltrated our politics. This is not a "war" we have chosen. They did that with their religious beliefs. Occupying ground does nothing to defeat them. Our only recourse is to kill them when they kill us. They need to understand they will pay a price each and every time they attack us. That is the only policing that works.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #33)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 05:39 PM

41. "Gaining ground" is a metaphor for success

But, it can also be literal in this case as well, since the Kurds literally took back a lot of ground from ISIS by driving them out of the territory they once controlled. It all started when the Kurds didn't let ISIS gain ground by taking their towns.

I get your point about using conventional war terms when discussing terrorism. Fighting terrorism is not like fighting a conventional war, but then liberals have been saying that all along. It's pretty much the main reason a lot of us thought it was not a good idea to go into Iraq in the first place.

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Response to okletstalk (Reply #41)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 05:50 PM

42. Killing Saddam was a good thing

Spending billions there afterward was a bad thing

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Response to oflguy (Reply #42)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 05:59 PM

45. Maybe, maybe not. Who knows for sure?

He did help to keep radical groups like ISIS at bay. He was pretty well contained and sanctioned. He was not really the threat everyone thought he was. Plus, he really didn't have anything to do with 911.

You're right about spending billions afterward. We could have saved a lot of blood and treasure if we hadn't waged war on Iraq and eventually ISIS.

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Response to foia (Original post)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 03:31 PM

31. The point is that the U.S. asked the Kurds for help

In defeating ISIS. ISIS is not yet defeated but Trump is cutting and running. The U.S. military leadership would have preferred a defeat of ISIS and then bring our victorious troops home to victory parades. Like in the old days.

As recently as June, 2019, the Trump Administration’s Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Michael Mulroy said at the Middle East Institute, “The (Kurdish) Syrian Defense Force grew from a few hundred members in 2015 to what it is today: a thousands-strong, multi-ethnic force of Syrians.” “SDF forces have been fighting to take back their homeland from ISIS,” he continued, “and they remain committed, despite suffering thousands of casualties.” He stressed that it was crucial for the US and the Coalition to continue to “support local partners to stabilize the areas that have been liberated from ISIS’ control.”
The abrupt change of policy threatens the above.
https://www.kurdistan24.net/en/analysis/20058a5c-6051-4cb9-86cb-5b4dbd340445

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Response to jh4freedom (Reply #31)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 03:56 PM

34. We asked the Kurds for help?

So they needed convincing to kill ISIS other than the fact that ISIS was cutting their children's heads off?

Get real. Wake up.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #34)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 05:27 PM

40. Yes the U.S. asked the Kurds to assist our military in defeating ISIS.

U.S. military strategy has always been to build military coalitions with allies.

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Response to jh4freedom (Reply #40)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 05:51 PM

43. When did we ask them to help us?

a link would answer the question

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Response to foia (Original post)

Tue Oct 8, 2019, 06:01 PM

46. Yep

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