Politicspolitics

Fri May 22, 2020, 12:23 PM

Re-reading parts of Atlas Shrugged.

The book is a fucking oracle.

CDC = State Science Institute

Dr. Fauci= Dr. Robert Stadler

Hydrocloroquine = Reardon's Metal

Pharma Companies = Associated Steel.

Of course you wont know what Im talking about unless you have read the book.

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Arrow 56 replies Author Time Post
Reply Re-reading parts of Atlas Shrugged. (Original post)
GoldwatersSoul May 22 OP
_eek May 22 #1
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #2
_eek May 22 #10
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #20
_eek May 25 #54
GoldwatersSoul May 26 #56
Carlos W Bush May 22 #5
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #23
Daves Not Here Man May 22 #34
Carlos W Bush May 22 #39
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #45
Daves Not Here Man May 22 #46
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #47
Daves Not Here Man May 22 #48
Mouth of Chaos May 22 #3
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #4
Mouth of Chaos May 22 #8
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #18
swifty May 22 #6
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #7
Valishin May 22 #11
Charlie Mike May 22 #37
FreeWheelBurning May 22 #9
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #14
FreeWheelBurning May 22 #16
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #21
OTSmithers May 22 #12
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #15
jh4freedom May 22 #13
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #17
jh4freedom May 22 #28
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #31
jh4freedom May 22 #49
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #53
Zappa Dappa Doo May 22 #19
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #22
Steelydamned May 22 #24
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #25
Steelydamned May 22 #26
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #27
Zappa Dappa Doo May 22 #38
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #44
jh4freedom May 22 #29
Steelydamned May 22 #30
jh4freedom May 22 #50
Zappa Dappa Doo May 22 #51
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #52
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #32
Steelydamned May 22 #33
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #35
Muddling Through May 22 #41
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #43
_eek May 25 #55
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #36
Daves Not Here Man May 22 #40
GoldwatersSoul May 22 #42

Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Fri May 22, 2020, 12:27 PM

1. ugh..

Ayn had some... interesting, ideas, but good God was she a horrible writer.

She also seems to see pure selfishness as virtue, and any altruism as vice.

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Response to _eek (Reply #1)

Fri May 22, 2020, 12:37 PM

2. Values....

I think most people misunderstand the values she was expressing.

Selfishness is more about acting in your own best interest. Your selfish interest not only benefits those directly connected to you but serves as a beacon. Those that want to achieve and do better....they seek models.

Altruism is easy to prove that it is a truly evil concept.

Most homeless shelters ask that you do not give money to the homeless since so many suffer mental illness and substance abuse. Why? Altruistic intentions fund self destructive activities.

Altruism unless you use a "teach a man to fish," type program, cripples the intended people you want to lift up.

Experiment. Leave a can of Tuna out for a stray cat. See what happens.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #2)

Fri May 22, 2020, 01:51 PM

10. I posit that much "altrusim" is entirely selfish


The simplistic story that Rand sells has 2 opposing groups of selfish people, the only thing admirable about the Gulch is the honesty of all those ubermenschen.

Explain to me the difference between the average Galtite and the average Liberal/taker. Both actually believe they will not be at the mercy of the whims of others, and in fact will be the one's making decisions. Both are deluded. Everyone thinks they will at the least be a guard at the gates of their ideological gulags, not inside them.

Not every man is a Hank Reardon, most are mundane and at best average, where is their place in the exceptionilistic masturbatory fantasies of Rand? Hank Reardon did create an incredible product, and deserved the acclaim, and the control of his product. But it was not he that worked the forges, trading sweat, time, and even lives to manufacture it. He did create it, but he did not build it. Truly no man is an island, and I think that some people miss, or disregard that fact. Rand tells a parable, a long, rambling, and somewhat disjointed parable. And like all of them it is an overly simplistic childlike fantasy, ignoring, or disregarding the difficult truths of life in a society.

And teaching a man to fish is altruism, providing all the needs of others is a soft slavery, at best, a selfish action.


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Response to _eek (Reply #10)

Fri May 22, 2020, 03:16 PM

20. Wrong in regards to altruism...

Not sure you read Rand like I did.

Those in Galts Gulch dont want to make decisions for anyone. In fact they dont want anyone making decisions for them either. The idea is really, how can any entity seek to extract more from you because you made more?

You mention that Reardon was dependent on others. Well what about it? Even Rand does not describe industry as a solitary activity. Reardon employs others to work for him. He is not required. Nor should he be pressed to do anything more than offer fair wages.

Creative discovery always gives credit to the leader. Columbus for example did not sail alone.

The idea of the Gulch was that they were fleeing a situation where the wealthy creators were becoming the prey of society. If society could no longer feed on them they die and perhaps all survivors learn that they must find their own discovery and seek their own best interest rather than considering the altruism of others as their umbrella.

Teaching a man to fish is not altruism...it is benevolence. The altruistic co-opt the concept of benevolence to reinforce their philosophy.

Altruism posits that you hold the well being and benefit of others above your own. There is no ethical foundation for this...that you should think of the community above yourself.

In fact altruism is the very basis of socialism.

Most people think of altruism as a concept of doing good for others. It is not. It is a philosophy that says that because all altruistic men must think of others beyond himself. Then so the beggar is entitled to a piece of the altuists labor....therefore benevolence could not exist since the idea of help and assistance to lesser becomes a dharma rather than a personal will.

Teaching a man to fish is a benevolent act... once he knows how to fend for himself, any base social contract has ended.

And since it is an act of benevolence, either participant can end the exercise at anytime. If it were altruistic, the teacher would be compelled by the idea that the student is entitled to the teachers time intrinsically.

Altruism flies in the face of capitalism at a philosophical level.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #20)

Mon May 25, 2020, 11:46 PM

54. We will have to disagree, as your definition is not the same as mine..

Basically, the belief in or practice of disinterested and selfless concern for the well-being of others. I see that as benevolence. It in no way is in opposition to capitalism.

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Response to _eek (Reply #54)

Tue May 26, 2020, 09:32 AM

56. It is a philosophical dillema...

Selfless is a bit of a misnomer as well. Those doing things to benefit others receive and intrinsic benefit of personal actualization.

If you are interested, my definition comes frok Auguste Comte, the philsosopher who created the concept. I think we disagree because I tend to be literal on these concepts to avoid overlap....whereas the colloquial definitions have become far more widely accepted today.

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Response to _eek (Reply #1)

Fri May 22, 2020, 12:47 PM

5. I disagree.

We The Living is a fantastic book. The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged may be long winded, but they are classics that will be around forever. Anthem, however, is decent but not great.

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Response to Carlos W Bush (Reply #5)

Fri May 22, 2020, 03:24 PM

23. Anthem was short...

I think her firdt and she was still caught up in her trauma of the Soviet Union.

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Response to Carlos W Bush (Reply #5)

Fri May 22, 2020, 04:51 PM

34. I only read pop up books and penthouse letters.

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Response to Daves Not Here Man (Reply #34)

Fri May 22, 2020, 05:30 PM

39. I'm proud of you, bruh.

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Response to Daves Not Here Man (Reply #34)

Fri May 22, 2020, 06:20 PM

45. Penthouse letters...

Still printing or do you have a vintage collection?

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #45)

Fri May 22, 2020, 06:48 PM

46. My Mom writes them and puts them in my lunchbox.

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Response to Daves Not Here Man (Reply #46)

Fri May 22, 2020, 07:08 PM

47. But then,,,

they wouldn't be penthouse letters right? Or does she have you proofread them before she sends them in?

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #47)

Fri May 22, 2020, 07:13 PM

48. Ok.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Fri May 22, 2020, 12:44 PM

3. I saw the movie.

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Response to Mouth of Chaos (Reply #3)

Fri May 22, 2020, 12:46 PM

4. All 3 parts???

Yikes.....they tried.

It is too much and too complex to put into a movie or 3.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #4)

Fri May 22, 2020, 01:11 PM

8. I saw...

parts 1 and 2. There was a conclusion. I don't think there was a part 3. I think the whole Atlas Shrugged was done in 2 parts.

I've watched "The Fountainhead"

I've also come into contact with many of her concepts through various other means and artists, of which I agree. Though (laughingly) I've never read a single book.

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Response to Mouth of Chaos (Reply #8)

Fri May 22, 2020, 03:03 PM

18. There are 3....

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0480239/

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1985017/?ref_=fn_al_tt_0

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt2800038/?ref_=fn_al_tt_0

The Fountainhead was good....although you would have to have near fanatical ideas to destroy a huge building because of personal animus towards collectivism.

And it wasnt realistic that a woman you raped would then become your girlfriend.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Fri May 22, 2020, 12:51 PM

6. And the US president suggesting injecting disinfectant to cure a virus...

Which character is he?

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Response to swifty (Reply #6)

Fri May 22, 2020, 12:59 PM

7. Atlas Shrugged...

Is an Allegory. It uses fiction to describe real life concepts and present theories.

What you want is children's fairy tales. I dont know any good ones.

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Response to swifty (Reply #6)

Fri May 22, 2020, 01:57 PM

11. Why would there be

a corresponding character for someone that doesn't exist?

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Response to swifty (Reply #6)

Fri May 22, 2020, 05:20 PM

37. Never happened, liar.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Fri May 22, 2020, 01:12 PM

9. I really did not like that book

There was not one character I could relate to. Every major character came off as a 2D caricature.

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Response to FreeWheelBurning (Reply #9)

Fri May 22, 2020, 02:47 PM

14. I guess...

So many characters it is hard to believr you couldnt find one that you felt some kinship to. Or at least philosophies, I have met many people who resemble Dan Conway....after getting fucked ovee by the government, he retires to a life of solitude and fishing.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #14)

Fri May 22, 2020, 02:49 PM

16. I do identify with some of the philosophies, in moderation

It has bee 20+ since I read it. My perspective of it now is that each character's philosophical outlook was taken to an extreme.

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Response to FreeWheelBurning (Reply #16)

Fri May 22, 2020, 03:20 PM

21. Probably...

I think Rand was trying to make people recognize those different philosophies we all encounter. She often cracked eggs with a sledge hammer.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Fri May 22, 2020, 01:57 PM

12. Until you have read it multiple times you just don't get it....

It is an incredible book. The thing that most critics miss is that the story is not the message, the story is a vehicle for illustrating the underlying philosophy. It is a parable if you will. That's a large part of why the story itself is so slow, she didn't care. She needs to lead the reader slowly, step by step, until they finally see each new layer on their own.

Atlas Shrugged (and Ayn Rand) is one of a few books that I credit with the success that I have had with my own business.

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Response to OTSmithers (Reply #12)

Fri May 22, 2020, 02:48 PM

15. Indeed....

As I said. It is an oracle a prophetic work.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Fri May 22, 2020, 02:45 PM

13. I'm just glad we have a Republican in the White House

when Atlas Shrugged's dystopian visions are coming to fruition. Can you imagine the political dynamics if Barack Obama was in the Oval Office? Yikes!
I read Atlas Shrugged in high school and wrote a term paper on it.

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Response to jh4freedom (Reply #13)

Fri May 22, 2020, 02:57 PM

17. Doubtful...

I dont believe you read it.

If you did and understood it...you would know that what Rand was talking about took many years to reach fruition.

What I presented was a small piece of the allegory.

Obama was a HUGE accelerator of that shit. A lot of his ideas were akin to the "anti dog eat dog" laws.

If you had read it completely.....you'd know what I mean.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #17)

Fri May 22, 2020, 04:21 PM

28. It was really a long time ago.

An honors English class if I remember correctly. I've also seen parts 1 & 2 of the movie as well. Your post has reminded me to check out part 3.
In the wake of the Great Recession, Barack Obama DID have the annual federal deficit at $1.3 trillion for FY 2010 (after G.W. Bush ran it up to $1.4 Trillion for FY 2009. But by the time Obama left office the deficit was at $665 billion for FY2017.
The annual budget deficit is likely to triple or quadruple this year: "U.S. deficit to soar to record $3.8 trillion in 2020, budget watchdog group says"
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-budget/u-s-deficit-to-soar-to-record-3-8-trillion-in-2020-budget-watchdog-group-says-idUSKCN21V1TA

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Response to jh4freedom (Reply #28)

Fri May 22, 2020, 04:42 PM

31. Who says Democrats and Republicans are different....

I do believe you watched the movies. Strange book for an English class.

Where do you suppose deficits come from? Who controls the purse? How was budgeting done while Obama was in office? What do you suppose the deficit would have looked like had Obama held a Democrat congress throughout his tenure?

You want to look at it from a D or R dichotomy. It doesnt work in thst respect because revenue to the government is derivative.

The democrats created the modern budget and it largely doesnt change. 70% entitlements, 18% Military, 12% discretionary.

That 12% discretionary doesnt create deficits.
It depends mostly on returns via taxation. When the economy is firing lower deficits. When it isnt higher deficits.

That is another point I blame on dems....spending. There js no earthly reason the US governmenr should be paying all the freight on entitlements when that is where 70% of our budget goes to.

It is like a group of ten people going to dinner. 7 have a steak and lobster, two have chicken the last has the salad. The bill comes and the steak eaters bitch about the cost of the salad.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #31)

Fri May 22, 2020, 07:25 PM

49. The data comes from the White House Office of Management & Budget

Click on "view"
https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/hist01z1_fy21.xlsx
But I used these figures which come from the Congressional Budget Office:
"History of the US Federal Budget Deficit"
Budget Deficit by Year
https://www.thoughtco.com/history-of-us-federal-budget-deficit-3321439
https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2019-08/55551-CBO-outlook-update_0.pdf

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Response to jh4freedom (Reply #49)

Fri May 22, 2020, 09:50 PM

53. I dont care...

Where the data comes from my points are the same regardless.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Fri May 22, 2020, 03:05 PM

19. ATLAS SHRUGGED: THE ABRIDGED VERSION (with spoilers)

AYN RAND
Hello, I'm Ayn Rand. I wrote a novel based on my Objectivist philosophy called The Fountainhead, but I don't think 700 pages was quite enough to get my point across, so I will write the exact same novel, only it will take 1100 pages this time.

READERS
Hey, great.

HEROINE
I'm Dagny Taggart. I am a railroad tycoon, woman-in-a-man's-world, stunningly beautiful heroine. I am the only person capable of running this railroad. I am the only woman in the universe worth a damn. I am also the only woman in the universe with a real job. I am basically the only woman in this novel.

LOVE INTEREST #1
I have worshiped you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, from afar for my whole life.

HEROINE
That's nice.

LOVE INTEREST #2
I have worshiped you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, naked on the forest floor. Yet I will nobly step aside in the name of noble idealism, despite the fact that I love you and want you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn, desperately.

HEROINE
Okay.

LOVE INTEREST #3
I worship you, the only woman in the universe worth a damn. Let us have creepy rape fantasy sex now. I will not ask permission to do all these kinky things to you, but luckily you want to be forced into all the kinky things, you dirty bitch.

HEROINE
This is clearly true love! Stick it in me.

ALL
Who is John Galt?

AYN RAND
I am not telling. Instead, please listen to someone pontificate about my Objectivist philosophy for a while.

SOMEONE
{Pontificates}

VILLAINS
There are many of us, but we are all exactly the same. We are caricatures of evil socialists and embodiments of pure evil. Let us create a perfect socialist world order ruled by the inept! We all suck! Socialism sucks! Ha ha!

HEROES
We are all exactly the same. We are noble and perfect and have very angular and insolent faces. We can read each other's minds and the minds of everyone else in this novel, leaving less room for misunderstanding and more room for pontificating. And we are all in love with Dagny Taggart, the only woman in the universe worth a damn.

ALL
Who is John Galt?

VILLAIN
{Threatens hero.}

HERO
{Flips coin}
If it's heads, I will gaze apathetically. If it's tails, I will laugh heartily.

VILLAIN
Although these are the only two things any of you heroes have done for the past 800 pages, I am shocked at this response! How could you! How dare you!?!

HERO
I will now pontificate about Ayn Rand's philosophy. It has been at least 50 pages since you've heard it.

AYN RAND
It is so convenient that all of my heroes are in perfect agreement about my philosophy so that their pontificating is so interchangeable.

ALL
Who is John Galt?

JOHN GALT
Hello. In this, the culmination of all the pontificating, I will explain Ayn Rand's philosophy for a full 57 pages. No, I am not kidding. This one monologue will last for 57 pages. Oh and also, I love Dagny.

DAGNY
I love you too. Man, this is really going to suck for Love Interest #3.

LOVE INTEREST #3
Despite my passionate love for you and enjoyment of our rape sex, and the fact that there is no other woman on earth worth a damn, and the fact that I sacrificed my life's passion on your behalf, and that I spent my entire fortune to get a divorce to be with you, I will now nobly step aside in the name of noble idealism.

DAGNY
Great! I will miss our creepy rape sex. Farewell.

LOVE INTEREST #3
Bye.

READER
Wait, what?

ATLAS
{Shrugs}

THE END

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #19)

Fri May 22, 2020, 03:23 PM

22. So...

After you get done stealing from sub-reddits about people who read the Cliffs Note's aiming to criticize...read the book yourself then come back and tell us what you think.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #19)

Fri May 22, 2020, 03:34 PM

24. Pie Not Included?

Dude, at least provide attribution to the person whose work you stole.

http://piebooks.blogspot.com/2006/01/atlas-shrugged-by-ayn-rand.html

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Response to Steelydamned (Reply #24)

Fri May 22, 2020, 03:45 PM

25. It is funny....

It is obvious the person from that blog didnt read the book. Lots of material facts wrong.

Dagny is not the only woman in the book.

The first love interest was when she was a teenager on the railroad tracks. (Strangely enough, I have met a number of women who they actually had sex on or near tracks as their first time)

Everytime Atlas Shrugged is mentioned, it always brings people out of the woodwork to talk shit about it using information that proves they havent read it.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #25)

Fri May 22, 2020, 03:52 PM

26. I've experienced much the same.

Granted, I read it over 26 years ago when I was in the Navy. I posted something on FB about it years back when the first AS movie came out. Had a lefty leaning friend immediately begin talking shit about it who also plagiarized the EXACT SAME BLOG POST which I also found then and called him out finally making him admit he'd never actually read any of Rands work yet somehow still held an opinion about how awful it was.

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Response to Steelydamned (Reply #26)

Fri May 22, 2020, 03:54 PM

27. Ha ha...

That is about right.

I actually think her wtiting is pretty average in terms of storyline. But her presentation of theory and philosophy is stellar.

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Response to Steelydamned (Reply #24)

Fri May 22, 2020, 05:29 PM

38. Thanks, I was going to include a link but I wasn't sure with whom it originated.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #38)

Fri May 22, 2020, 06:18 PM

44. Bullshit.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #19)

Fri May 22, 2020, 04:25 PM

29. Now THAT was funny!

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Response to jh4freedom (Reply #29)

Fri May 22, 2020, 04:32 PM

30. Probably would have been funnier....

....had it not been outright plagiarized from a 14 yr old blog post.

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Response to Steelydamned (Reply #30)

Fri May 22, 2020, 07:26 PM

50. Nah, it was still just as funny.

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Response to Steelydamned (Reply #30)

Fri May 22, 2020, 09:33 PM

51. I hope that someday we can live in a world without plagiarism.

You may say I'm a dreamer. But I'm not the only one.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #51)

Fri May 22, 2020, 09:49 PM

52. Sure....

It will be the same day ypu stop making up stories to present an argument.

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Response to jh4freedom (Reply #29)

Fri May 22, 2020, 04:46 PM

32. Perfect example...

The blog is made up of shit that realy isnt represented in the book. The author presented an idea of what they believe the tenor and philosophy to be.

It reads like a Chinese person trying to explain baseball when he has never seen or been to a game. The movie wont help you.

In my opinion the movie was mediocre and could not offer the philosophy of the book so if you think you are going to describe the book via the movie in a credible way...you are lost.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #32)

Fri May 22, 2020, 04:49 PM

33. Yeah....

...I was looking forward to the film and as expected, it didn't even play here so I had to drive to New Orleans to see it.

It was ok. But, as a dedicated "the book was better than the movie guy" I honestly didn't expect the filmmakers to capture the breadth and scope of it.

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Response to Steelydamned (Reply #33)

Fri May 22, 2020, 04:52 PM

35. I think....

I think if they made like a TV series. Could work. You just dont have the time in a movie to lay everything out. Too much to cover.

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #35)

Fri May 22, 2020, 05:36 PM

41. Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings

is the closest I've seen anyone coming to transferring a "great work" of literature to the big screen. He still had to cut a lot out and move a lot around, but he seemed to capture the "gestalt" of what Tolkien had created.

Then, he went and screwed it up with "The Hobbit".

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Response to Muddling Through (Reply #41)

Fri May 22, 2020, 06:18 PM

43. Yeah....

He did pretty well, especially since that was such a huge piece of lit.

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Response to Zappa Dappa Doo (Reply #19)

Mon May 25, 2020, 11:52 PM

55. literal LOL

"ATLAS
{Shrugs} "

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Original post)

Fri May 22, 2020, 04:58 PM

36. How you know people havent read this...

And THAT is ok that you havent read it. I am kind of a prolific reader. It is 1100 pages and dense.

But I know you havent read it because you can speak to the OP. You have NO fucking idea what I am talking about. Ha ha ha

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Response to GoldwatersSoul (Reply #36)

Fri May 22, 2020, 05:34 PM

40. Man the gate!

Guard it at all cost!

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Response to Daves Not Here Man (Reply #40)

Fri May 22, 2020, 06:16 PM

42. Oh I welcome them....

They prefer to bullshit based on philosophy.

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