Politicspolitics

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 09:01 AM

Who are these Evil Koch brothers

the left has spent tons of paper and digital ink in demonizing the Koch brothers. but who exactly are they?

Some facts about the Kochs

While the Koch family has been making substantial donations to criminal justice reform organizations for nearly a decade, most recently the Kochs headed a bipartisan resolution to make more serious leaps to reform. Included in these are aims at eliminating overcriminalization and overincarceration, which generally harms low-income and minority communities, as well as reducing recidivism rates, diminishing barriers faced by the rehabilitated seeking employment, and law enforcement's asset forfeiture to deprive the incarcerated of property

Former Republican congressman Joe Scarborough, co-host of MSNBC's Morning Joe, has pointed out that, although their critics are usually unaware of the fact, the Koch brothers have supported more than just what are generally considered conservative causes. They opposed George W. Bush on many issues, are pro-choice, support same sex marriage, and had worked closely with the Obama White House for the Obama administration's criminal justice reform initiatives that aligned with their own

Fred C. and Mary R. Koch Foundation
The Koch family foundations began in 1953 with the establishment of the Fred C. and Mary R. Koch Foundation. The Fred C. and Mary R. Koch Foundation was established to support non-profits in Kansas focusing on "arts, environmental stewardship, human services, enablement of at-risk youth, and education" through the funding of diversity programs at Kansas State University; the program Youth Entrepreneurs, a high-school level entrepreneurial and business program; the Gilder Lehrman Institute of American History, which develops programs to enhance the schools' history curricula; and the Bill of Rights Institute, an organization that holds seminars and workshops for teachers and administrators to provide "educational resources on America’s Founding documents and principles" to enhance the learning experience for students. The Foundation's environmental aid includes support for science education, and donations to organizations such as The Nature Conservancy to help preserve the Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve, as well as the creation of the Koch Wetlands Exhibit in the Cheyenne Bottoms wetlands in Kansas

In 2014, Koch Industries Inc. and the Charles Koch Foundation granted $25 million to the United Negro College Fund (UNCF). In protest of the Kochs, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, a major labor union, ended its annual $50,000–$60,000 support for the UNC

David H. Koch Charitable Foundation
David H. Koch established the David H. Koch Charitable Foundation. The David H. Koch Charitable Foundation has funded cancer research and a number of arts and science organizations, including the American Ballet Theatre, New York City Ballet, Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts, the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and the American Museum of Natural History. An open letter to museums from 36 members of the scientific community demanded that the Smithsonian and other museums cut any ties with the Kochs, because of worries that they would remove information on climate change. The Smithsonian countered by stating both exhibits in question did examine in great detail the impacts of climate change. The Koch Foundation responded they "have pledged or contributed more than $1.2 billion dollars to educational institutions and cultural institutions, cancer research, medical centers, and to assist public policy organizations.”

David Koch donated $35 million in 2012 to the Smithsonian’s Natural History Museum and $20 million to the American Museum of Natural History in New York. Joe Romm of ThinkProgress stated “David Koch did not personally intervene to affect the exhibit”. David Koch is a member of the board of trustees of the American Museum of Natural History in New York and the Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History in Washington.

The David H. Koch Charitable Foundation is a significant funder of Americans for Prosperity. David H. Koch chairs the board of directors of the associated AFP Foundation



so why are they so evil again? Because they are conservative? Because they doubt man is the major culprit in global warming? So much hate from the left for so little!

88 replies, 4397 views

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Arrow 88 replies Author Time Post
Reply Who are these Evil Koch brothers (Original post)
nolidad Mar 2016 OP
exindy Mar 2016 #1
nolidad Mar 2016 #4
exindy Mar 2016 #8
TexMex Mar 2016 #14
exindy Mar 2016 #23
frankt8242 Mar 2016 #2
nolidad Mar 2016 #6
frankt8242 Mar 2016 #13
GoodCraic Mar 2016 #12
Grebbid Mar 2016 #15
Dexter Morgan Mar 2016 #16
frankt8242 Mar 2016 #17
Dexter Morgan Mar 2016 #18
frankt8242 Mar 2016 #21
Dexter Morgan Mar 2016 #22
frankt8242 Mar 2016 #26
Ajax Mar 2016 #19
frankt8242 Mar 2016 #20
Scary Red Mar 2016 #3
nolidad Mar 2016 #5
nolidad Mar 2016 #7
exindy Mar 2016 #9
nolidad Mar 2016 #27
exindy Mar 2016 #33
nolidad Mar 2016 #41
exindy Mar 2016 #53
nolidad Mar 2016 #58
exindy Mar 2016 #59
nolidad Mar 2016 #64
exindy Mar 2016 #66
nolidad Mar 2016 #68
Cave Dweller Mar 2016 #50
Juan Rico Mar 2016 #10
FrankHerbert Mar 2016 #51
smalllivingeddy Mar 2016 #11
nolidad Mar 2016 #30
smalllivingeddy Mar 2016 #36
nolidad Mar 2016 #42
smalllivingeddy Mar 2016 #44
smalllivingeddy Mar 2016 #46
smalllivingeddy Mar 2016 #61
nolidad Apr 2016 #76
smalllivingeddy Apr 2016 #79
joefriday6 Mar 2016 #65
smalllivingeddy Mar 2016 #67
joefriday6 Mar 2016 #69
smalllivingeddy Mar 2016 #72
joefriday6 Mar 2016 #73
nolidad Apr 2016 #77
nolidad Apr 2016 #75
joefriday6 Apr 2016 #80
nolidad Apr 2016 #81
joefriday6 Apr 2016 #82
nolidad Apr 2016 #83
joefriday6 Apr 2016 #84
nolidad Apr 2016 #85
FrankHerbert Mar 2016 #24
exindy Mar 2016 #25
FrankHerbert Mar 2016 #28
exindy Mar 2016 #29
FrankHerbert Mar 2016 #31
exindy Mar 2016 #35
FrankHerbert Mar 2016 #39
exindy Mar 2016 #40
nolidad Mar 2016 #43
exindy Mar 2016 #48
nolidad Mar 2016 #70
exindy Mar 2016 #71
nolidad Apr 2016 #74
FrankHerbert Mar 2016 #49
exindy Mar 2016 #54
FrankHerbert Mar 2016 #55
exindy Mar 2016 #57
LaughingGull Mar 2016 #47
nolidad Apr 2016 #78
nolidad Mar 2016 #32
exindy Mar 2016 #34
smalllivingeddy Mar 2016 #45
JoeHill Mar 2016 #37
JoeHill Mar 2016 #38
Cave Dweller Mar 2016 #62
JoeHill Mar 2016 #63
Lifelong Mar 2016 #52
gowiththrottleup Mar 2016 #56
exindy Mar 2016 #60
nolidad Apr 2016 #88
nolidad Apr 2016 #87
Valishin Apr 2016 #86

Response to nolidad (Original post)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 09:12 AM

1. ALEC

Through the corporate-funded American Legislative Exchange Council, global corporations and state politicians vote behind closed doors to try to rewrite state laws that govern your rights. These so-called "model bills" reach into almost every area of American life and often directly benefit huge corporations.
In ALEC's own words, corporations have "a VOICE and a VOTE" on specific changes to the law that are then proposed in your state. DO YOU? Numerous resources to help us expose ALEC are provided below. We have also created links to detailed discussions of key issues, which are available on the left.

http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed

ALEC's Funding and Spending

This CMD Special Report cuts through the PR spin and exposes the funding and spending of the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC). Almost 98% of ALEC's funding comes from corporations like Exxon Mobil, corporate "foundations" like the Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation, or trade associations like the pharmaceutical industry's PhRMA and sources other than "legislative dues." Those funds help subsidize legislators' trips to ALEC meetings, where they are wined, dined, and handed "model" legislation to make law in their state. Through ALEC, corporations vote on "model" legislation with politicians behind closed doors. The special report focuses on ALEC's funding. Learn more at ALEC Exposed.

http://www.prwatch.org/news/2011/07/10887/cmd-special-report-alecs-funding-and-spending#sthash.8SQ4rdZx.dpuf

Just because a guy drops a grand in the basket at church doesn't mean he's not running a string of hookers and selling drugs to your kids.

It's only business.

An example is the current move in state legislatures to pre-empt local laws that would restrict corporate interests. Like here where a local municipality can't do anything against plastic bags.

Or in Alabama where Montgomery(?) can't institute a minimum wage.

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Response to exindy (Reply #1)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 09:43 AM

4. So lets see if I got this right.

1. the Koch brothers run a huge corporation.

2.they belong to an organization that brings other corporate owners and sympathetic legislators together to talk about corporate interests.

3. They hash out model legislation to try to get passed

4. They do the same thing left wing groups do- but these people have more money so that makes them evil?

5. The left wing hit sites you posted from imply that businesses should have no voice in govt. How very totalitarian of you!

6. Seems the big fight was banning plastic bags and all that evil money didn't do such a great job in sevceral cities did it?

Or in Alabama where Montgomery(?) can't institute a minimum wage.

I wish one day you own a business. You will change your mind about govt. laws and forced minimum wages when you may have to close your doors.

If businesses are making great money- yes they should share those profits with the employees who work for them. If they don't the public should go elsewhere. But forcing a corp? Nope!

I believe in the biblical model.

1 Tim. 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

Eph.6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

6 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:

6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

6 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Luke 3:14 New International Version
Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely--be content with your pay."

Strikes and work actions are against God. We agree to our wages when we get hired. If an employer refuses to raise wages- then we should look elsewhere, eventually that employer will lose all his good employees and lose his business because his attitude on wages is probably also reflecting on many other areas of his business as well

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Response to nolidad (Reply #4)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 09:57 AM

8. No, you don't have it right.

You keep telling me what I believe and never hear what I say. IOW, the voice in your head is blocking the connection to your ear.

"Strikes and work actions are against God".

Are you implying that corporations are now god? Or just godlike?

If I have invested my time and life in a community and it is based upon my employment, and that employment has decided to abandon the community and its workers,

why should I be the one who leaves? That business exists because the people agreed to let it do business based upon rules that are defined by the people.

They break those rules, they lose their right to exist. Ain't nothin but a piece of paper.

BTW, you can skip with the biblical quotes. That book was superceded in our society by the rules and laws defined by our society.

You don't like our laws? Don't let the door hit ya where...

You leave.

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Response to exindy (Reply #8)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 11:04 AM

14. Results are in:

 


No, you don't have it right.
http://www.discussionist.com/?com=view_post&forum=1015&pid=784623

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is uncivil, off-topic, offensive, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Personal attacks on poster saying they have mental problems

TOS Violation

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of Discussionist members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Mar 28, 2016, 10:58 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
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Explanation: Nothing remotely hideworthy in that post.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see the TOS violation. Tip for the future, don't let people with bad arguments make you feel bad enough to hit the alert button if there's not an actual TOS violation. If you are the sort of delicate flower that doesn't approve of such discourse, this website is not for you. Go look at lolcatz.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: too tame to hide

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Response to TexMex (Reply #14)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 12:11 PM

23. Thanks all.

I'll try to be more careful.

I know there are some who try to quiet opposing views by hoping for a good jury so I try very hard not to make statements that might be construed as personal attacks.

I guess I left a little opening.

Can't promise it won't happen again.

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Response to nolidad (Original post)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 09:22 AM

2. Is it true that their "fan club" is named...

 

The "Koch suckers"...??

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Response to frankt8242 (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 09:45 AM

6. Well as you seem to love to root around in the gutters of morals

you would know better than me.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #6)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 10:42 AM

13. Yes indeed ...some of us are wise enough to...

 

Take good advice..:
"Know the nature of your enemy"..
Works for ME..!!

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Response to frankt8242 (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 10:25 AM

12. No I believe that is the group that buys

into the meme they are evil.

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Response to frankt8242 (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 11:08 AM

15. I'm sure you guys will get 'em one day.

And teach 'em a lesson.
yep, you'll lick those Kochs !

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Response to frankt8242 (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 11:21 AM

16. Kinda homophobic don't you think?

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Response to Dexter Morgan (Reply #16)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 11:27 AM

17. Why so...??

 

Some of my favorite encounters during my travels around the planet over the years have been such folks..
But then, my "agenda" differs from yours a good deal AFAIK..!!!

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Response to frankt8242 (Reply #17)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 11:29 AM

18. I am sorry what are you talking about?

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Response to Dexter Morgan (Reply #18)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 11:39 AM

21. Well..finally a confession..

 

And you are.......... indeed..!!!

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Response to frankt8242 (Reply #21)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 11:40 AM

22. Still no idea what you are talking about...Bye....

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Response to Dexter Morgan (Reply #22)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 12:42 PM

26. Smart move..

 

You were already "in way over your head"...

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Response to frankt8242 (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 11:33 AM

19. Jury results

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message
On Tue Mar 29, 2016, 01:22 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Is it true that their "fan club" is named...
http://www.discussionist.com/?com=view_post&forum=1015&pid=784604

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is uncivil, off-topic, offensive, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

No comments added by alerter

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of Discussionist members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Mar 29, 2016, 01:28 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

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Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
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Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: no comment from alerter, means you don't really find this offensive.. leave it.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alerter didn't leave comments, so either post is okay or alerter may be a little lazy- post stands
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

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Response to Ajax (Reply #19)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 11:36 AM

20. Gutless alerter..

 

Didn't even give an explanation..
Must be a member of "the club"..!!!

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Response to nolidad (Original post)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 09:23 AM

3. They are not conservatives-- they are libertarians...

and among the most powerful of the breed.

It is perfectly logical, in their thinking, for them to donate billions to hospitals, wildlife refuges and other good works, but to demand no government do the same, or interfere with their businesses or giving.

That is unacceptable in a democracy.

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Response to Scary Red (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 09:44 AM

5. It is a good thing then that America is not a democracy then isn't it!

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Response to Scary Red (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 09:47 AM

7. Libertarians?

Oh no!!!!

Libertarianism (Latin: liber, "free") is a political philosophy that upholds liberty as its principal objective. Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and freedom of choice, emphasizing political freedom, voluntary association, and the primacy of individual judgment.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #7)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 09:59 AM

9. The people who are more than happy to eat from the community pot

but never around when it's time to put something into it.

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Response to exindy (Reply #9)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 12:43 PM

27. they pay plenty of taxes

Just never enough for socialists

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Response to nolidad (Reply #27)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 01:05 PM

33. Ahh, no they don't

I guess you missed that part about corporations sheltering trillions of profit dollars overseas and hoping for a tax forgiveness day so they can distribute it.

Maybe you can provide us with a few links?

Here's a picture that might help.

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Response to exindy (Reply #33)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:43 PM

41. Funny I don't see Koch Industries on your charts.

We are talking about them.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #41)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 06:14 PM

53. I thought we were talking about who pays taxes.

and who doesn't.

The chart only shows the top 25 companies. Feel free to do the thing for Koch.

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Response to exindy (Reply #53)

Tue Mar 29, 2016, 06:46 AM

58. Read the title of the thread and see who we are talking about.

as for taxes- you are the one who threw that on the table, don't expect me to do your work for you!

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Response to nolidad (Reply #58)

Tue Mar 29, 2016, 07:57 AM

59. Did you ever notice that threads don't follow a straight line?

Didn't think so.

Of course I'm the one who threw taxes on the table. It is very relevant to the libertarian attitude. They like to get the free stuff that society gives them but don't like to be involved in that society.

This little sub-thread went off (literally) on the libertarians. That is the self-defined position of the bircher Kochs.

Made it all their own in life.... just a tiny little grubstake.

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Response to exindy (Reply #59)

Wed Mar 30, 2016, 04:50 PM

64. So are you saying that all the corporate execs are libertarians?

Yes libertarians want to pay as little in taxes as possible. Do you wish to pay as much as possible?

So you think it is evil to want to take advantage of every legal tax break the government allows?

The Koch Father was a Bircher and other than their racism- I would think every patriot would want to be a Bircher!

But the Koch brothers are not birchers, just their dad.

Still waiting for you to show if the Koch brothers or their industry don't pay their "fair share". Wish someone would define that for me.

No they started well in life and made it even better- is that wrong? Took a company doing very well and made it the 2nd largest private company in America. made many people wealthy, and help propel America into great sums of wealth. But that is an evil to the left.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #64)

Wed Mar 30, 2016, 06:15 PM

66. Nope. You should read what is said

and not fill the spaces between words with what you think they mean.

Your adoration is probably appreciated.

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Response to exindy (Reply #66)

Thu Mar 31, 2016, 06:45 AM

68. I have no feelings about the Kochs one way or the other on this topic

I just get tired of people trashing good folk. Other than donating to causes they believe in (yes politics as well) there has been no charge levelled against them that raises even a "meh".

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Response to exindy (Reply #9)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 05:24 PM

50. Really?

Why don't you come to Wichita some time and see all the places with Koch on the building.

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Response to Scary Red (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 10:02 AM

10. Good for them. Would that more people were.

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Response to Scary Red (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 05:28 PM

51. we don't live in a 'democracy'

the United States is a REPUBLIC.... what about that can people not understand?

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Response to nolidad (Original post)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 10:18 AM

11. Ah yes,

"Because they doubt man is the major culprit in global warming?"

It's not just that they doubt it, it is because they spend billions of dollars supporting development based on their unsupported belief that it is not so, and upon presenting false evidence and argument that it is not so. If they supported legitimate research on the issue that would be one thing--actually they did at one point. They funded a comprehensive survey to determine if the world is really warming. The study concluded that it is, and its summary stated that although the cause of the warming was beyond the scope of the study, there was no reason to doubt the predominant theory that human caused carbon pollution was a major part of the cause. The Kochs momentarily backed down, but within days were vigorously advancing unsupported argument that humans couldn't be changing the climate.

That would be enough by itself.

What they have done to the economy in Kansas is another point against them.

What they have done to destroy corporate responsibility for any damage done under corporate cover (with climate change being but one example) is another.

What they continuously do to subvert honest political debate is another, and arguably the most salient point against them.

. . .

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Response to smalllivingeddy (Reply #11)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 01:01 PM

30. care to cite your allegations?

Especially Kansas . Is it one of these?

http://www.kansas.com/news/special-reports/koch/

How do they subvert honest political debate. I don't hear them running off at the mouth that if people disagree with them they should be jailed (like some AGW whiners)

http://dailycaller.com/2015/09/17/scientists-ask-obama-to-prosecute-global-warming-skeptics/

Lots of people have serious doubts about man's cause in any warming, including many scientists!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming

http://www.petitionproject.org/

Just remember all the scam of the global warmers.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #30)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 01:25 PM

36. If I found any evidence that you posted and argued in good faith

then you might be worth the trouble.

I find no such evidence, and consider that you are not worth the trouble.

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Response to smalllivingeddy (Reply #36)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:44 PM

42. Ok so that is the lame excuse

to say that there is none. got it!

Keep Living Small-Eddy.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #42)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:48 PM

44. If you want a smallsampling of evidence

you can check out the posts that exindy made on this same thread.

Actually, I imagine that you already read them, and made fun of them while avoiding their substance . . .

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Response to nolidad (Reply #42)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:56 PM

46. not searching per se, but just happened accross this one

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Response to smalllivingeddy (Reply #61)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 06:27 AM

76. Huff po and Rachel are not objective journalists

Does Kansas has problems? You betcha.

But if you want to trade states with problems over trying ideology then just look athe projections for Ca. and N.Y.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #76)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 09:58 AM

79. Huff po and Rachel are not objective journalists

Too reality based for your tastes no doubt.

"Reality has a well known liberal bias." Stephen Colbert

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Response to smalllivingeddy (Reply #36)

Wed Mar 30, 2016, 04:55 PM

65. Pay no attention to this poster. He is as barren as the people he espouses--but he quite tricky as

you have seen.

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Response to joefriday6 (Reply #65)

Thu Mar 31, 2016, 04:20 AM

67. That's interesting because

we espouse some of the same people.

Certainly St. Thomas More.

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Response to smalllivingeddy (Reply #67)

Thu Mar 31, 2016, 10:00 AM

69. I'm the Thomas More man. I have never heard said poster mention him.....

As you were...

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Response to joefriday6 (Reply #69)

Thu Mar 31, 2016, 11:08 PM

72. Your memory is short.

We have discussed him not once bur twice before here.

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Response to smalllivingeddy (Reply #72)

Thu Mar 31, 2016, 11:35 PM

73. Or my focus is elsewhere. See ya.

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Response to joefriday6 (Reply #69)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 06:28 AM

77. Is that some secret requirement to be considered intelligent by you?

That I must somehow mention Thomas MOre from time to time? I think I'll pass.

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Response to joefriday6 (Reply #65)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 06:25 AM

75. Wow went from ally to sworn enemy!

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Response to nolidad (Reply #75)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 11:19 AM

80. I learn more and more about Ted Cruz every day. He is pure Establishment Scum with huge connections

to Wall Street. Every word out of this mouth is a lie. But it doesn't matter. The Establishment will get their guy in and continue to steal from the people. Our single hope is that Putin sees the seeds of revolution here and knows what to do.

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Response to joefriday6 (Reply #65)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 05:58 PM

81. Out of curiosity

What have I been tricky in and how have I been tricky?

Or is this just a drive by slander?

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Response to nolidad (Reply #81)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 06:05 PM

82. Pay no attention to me. I know what's going to happen now, so I am moving toward peace

with myself. Talking to you about that asshole Ted Cruz would just disturb my peace.

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Response to joefriday6 (Reply #82)

Sun Apr 3, 2016, 06:11 AM

83. Well as this thread is about the Kochs why are you bring up Cruz?????

I just am curious in how I am sneaky and what I am sneaky about. Once again do you have some things to back your accusation of me or is it just a drive by slander and run?

What is going to happen now? I might respond to you?

We can leave that man alone ( you brought him up on this thread)

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Response to nolidad (Reply #83)

Sun Apr 3, 2016, 01:33 PM

84. Koch Bros, Kruz...just different forms of dog dirt. None of the people I know

purposely buy Koch Brothers products anymore. We can't leave Kruz alone as long as he pretends to be Jeremiah one day and Rachel Maddow the next. But it makes no difference now. Trump will be taken down one way or the other. If Cruz and his Goldman Sachs's wife make it into the white house, my family will leave the country. We talked about it again just last night. Lot of preparation... Iraq--Gay Marriage--ISIS: all done by the US and ending its very existence. With Cruz in the running you will have participated in the epilogue to that end.

Have a nice life with your unusual God.

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Response to joefriday6 (Reply #84)

Sun Apr 3, 2016, 02:39 PM

85. Well lets hope you don't use any gas or oil

They control over 4,000miles of pipeline.

Well I hope you enjoy canada or mexico if he does get elected.

I know your hatred of Cruz is based on media propaganda. My son works for Sen. Lee and has seen Cruz in action.

1. He is a bible believing Christian
2. He is not a dominionist like his father.
3. He is hated by most senators because he will not compromise on the constitution or his principles.
4. No he is not perfect or a messiah.

As for the Kochs- do you hate them because they are conservative and use their wealth to help try to push conservative values like Soros does with liberal values?

or because they are rich?

or because it is now vogue with the PC crowd to demonize people who made wealth in the fossil fuel business?

Hope you never get cancer in NYC. They pretty much funded and built the cancer units in NYC with over $1 billion in donations.

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Response to nolidad (Original post)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 12:20 PM

24. saw an interview not too long ago

with charles koch, megyn kelly was doing the interview.

charles koch described himself as a 'classical liberal' and not a conservative.

good interview, ran most of an hour.

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Response to FrankHerbert (Reply #24)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 12:35 PM

25. Classical liberal is the PC term for libertarian

It's a way for the people who would never consider themselves liberal to pass.

Just like neolib is the term for neocon that hasn't had enough exposure to let the toxic mold grow on it.

Which prompts an interesting point. If a libertarian is one who considers himself socially liberal (ie, hands off cause of personal rights) but economically conservative,

why do the Kochs use social issues as the rug to hide their economic policies?

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Response to exindy (Reply #25)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 12:45 PM

28. how do they hide their economic policies with social issues?

as a 'conservative libertarian', i'm genuinely interested in understanding your comment.

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Response to FrankHerbert (Reply #28)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 01:00 PM

29. Kansas is a good example.

Let the people think that the most important issues are social ones, like PP, and then after taking office using that carrot,

passing all the trickledown tax cuts and cuts to education.

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Response to exindy (Reply #29)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 01:02 PM

31. democrats have done the same thing

with the ACA - deceptions were key to that getting enough support to pass.

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Response to FrankHerbert (Reply #31)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 01:06 PM

35. Ahh, they all do it argument.

So it's ok if they do it in Kansas.

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Response to exindy (Reply #35)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:14 PM

39. i didnt say it was ok, just pointing out that its not just one-sided

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Response to FrankHerbert (Reply #39)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:32 PM

40. Nobody suggested it was one-sided

what was pointed out was that the Kochs, using their leverage thru ALEC, is doing the definition of the laws in the states.

Do you wish to discuss the result of these changes in Kansas?

The Koch-backed Kansas Policy Institute predicted that Brownback’s 2013 tax plan would generate $323 million in new revenue. During its first full year in operation, the plan produced a $688 million loss. Meanwhile, Kansas’s job growth actually trailed that of its neighboring states. With that nearly $700 million deficit, the state had bought itself a 1.1 percent increase in jobs, just below Missouri’s 1.5 percent and Colorado’s 3.3.

Between 2010 and 2012, Kansas saw income growth of 6.1 percent, good for 12th in the nation; from 2013 to 2015, that rate was 3.6 percent, good for 41st.

Meanwhile, revenue shortfalls have devastated the state’s public sector along with its most vulnerable citizens. Since Brownback’s inauguration, 1,414 Kansans with disabilities have been thrown off Medicaid. In 2015, six school districts in the state were forced to end their years early for lack of funding. Cuts to health and human services are expected to cause 65 preventable deaths this year in Sedgwick County alone. In February, tax receipts came in $53 million below estimates; Brownback immediately cut $17 million from the state’s university system. This data is not lost on the people of Kansas — as of November, Brownback’s approval rating was 26 percent, the lowest of any governor in the United States.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/03/gop-must-answer-for-what-it-did-to-kansas.html

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Response to exindy (Reply #40)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:48 PM

43. Well connect the dots!

Just because you mention Kochs, Alec and Kansas all in one breath doesn't mean that the Kochs forced Brownback into doing what he did.

though cutting taxes in a nation that collects $6+ trillion a year in taxes doesn't sound like a bad thing!

If our taxes were the GDP of a nation it would be the 3rd largest GDP in the world behind the Us and China.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #43)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 04:13 PM

48. Nice try at the deflection.

Didn't work but nice try. Of course the Kochs didn't "force" him. He was chosen because he already believes what they want. Just like Walker and other governors.

You know, the ones the conservatives are so proud they put in office.

But as to the connect the dots, how are these? You know there are a lot of people who wonder why bills with the exact same language appear in different states at the same time.

During the 2011-2012 legislative session, 132 bills based on ALEC models were introduced in the states. Democrats sponsored nearly 10% of those bills, while Republicans sponsored more than 90%. Nearly two-thirds of those bills were introduced in state lower chambers, while only 34% were introduced in upper chambers. Of those legislators who sponsored ALEC model legislation, 57% can be explicitly connected to ALEC. However, that does not necessarily preclude the other legislators from having ALEC ties; ALEC does not disclose the names of their legislative members, so this figure is based primarily on information from leaked documents.

ALEC model language appeared in bills in 34 states (see Figure 1). Those bills were most common in West Virginia, where legislators introduced 10 bills based on ALEC model legislation. Both the Oklahoma and Mississippi legislatures considered nine ALEC bills, Arizona eight, and Kansas and Montana saw seven apiece.

http://www.brookings.edu/research/articles/2013/12/06-american-legislative-exchange-council-jackman

Some interesting statistics at the link.

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Response to exindy (Reply #48)

Thu Mar 31, 2016, 06:27 PM

70. And so?

They adopt ideas and push them for legislation. And that is wrong why?

When an idea doesn't work, they drop it.

these are not dummies but businessmen and politicians seeking to improve the states. It appears Kansas didn't fare well.

I actually like their goals (just read their website today)

But then again I am conservative and believe that power should be held as close to the people as possible.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #70)

Thu Mar 31, 2016, 06:29 PM

71. They're buying your gov't.

And you don't give a shit.

In fact, you're holding their coat.

Tory.

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Response to exindy (Reply #71)

Fri Apr 1, 2016, 05:23 AM

74. I didn't even knew they existed until you brought it out.

And if you don't think that the left doesn't do the same thing (maybe different methodologies but they have groups influencing legislation) you are very naive.

I would be a patriot not a tory.

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Response to exindy (Reply #40)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 05:14 PM

49. ok, so where in the article does it say anything about the

koch brothers and their evil 'conservative' influence?

this smacks of yet another attempt to paint them as evil when i doubt they are anything close.

the article ALSO happens to mention how shitty BernTard Sanders' Vermont did with his glorious 'new way' of doing things as governor. the same shitty policies he would like to give the rest of the country.

personally i'll take the kochs and their 'evil capitalism' over socialism or progressivism. any day.

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Response to FrankHerbert (Reply #49)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 06:25 PM

54. Ahh, the evil gambit.

That's the one that conservatives use to deflect from the activities of someone/thing they like. As if they can point and say that they are being unjustly persecuted because of some bias on my part.

And that changes what they are doing -- how?

Then there's the deflection to say --- hey, look what happens in VT. Without saying exactly what it was that these shitty policies were. IOW, a totally unfounded accusation. Feel free to show how VT is hurting because of his tenure.

Try to equate it to the couple billion dollar deficit being racked up in Kansas.

I have no doubt how you would choose. I don't care. What I do care about is that people are subverting our system of gov't in the name of unregulated capitalism. That they are getting laws passed that make them immune from laws.

In effect, it is a bloodless coup. And you are swayed because of some misguided historical "ism".

On a related note... evil is a religious construct. It is a way to somehow justify an attitude that violates the accepted behavior. I don't believe that any person does bad things because of some mythical being. I think they do it for very identifiable human traits.

In the case of some people, I think they are driven by some obsession. Whether it's porn or money, same drive.

And no, I don't believe that making some restitution to the other mythical being makes it all ok.

And with that....


I'm outa here.

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Response to exindy (Reply #54)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 08:01 PM

55. is it 'deflection' to ask for proof?

or should i just arbitrarily assume things without evidence like you seem to do?

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Response to FrankHerbert (Reply #55)

Tue Mar 29, 2016, 04:37 AM

57. Lots of evidence in this thread.

If you won't even look at it, can't really help ya.

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Response to exindy (Reply #35)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 04:03 PM

47. No, it's the hypocrisy argument.

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Response to exindy (Reply #35)

Sat Apr 2, 2016, 06:30 AM

78. No , but as the left has been doing it alot longer

and hiding it behind moral crusades, it is the height of hypocrisy when the right does the same and you remain silent about your own side.

If you think the left doesn't have multiple versions of ALEC you are incredibly naive.

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Response to exindy (Reply #29)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 01:02 PM

32. and your proof that the Kochs were behind this is??????

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Response to nolidad (Reply #32)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 01:06 PM

34. ALEC -- look up. n/t

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Response to FrankHerbert (Reply #24)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 03:51 PM

45. Milton Friedman

used to make the same distinction back in the day. I once heard him speak on the point directly.

But that old distinction, while valid in a limited sense, these days is mostly used to avoid real issues.

The Kochs are good at that.

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Response to nolidad (Original post)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 02:37 PM

37. A stopped clock is right twice a day.

 

Big deal.

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Response to nolidad (Original post)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 02:43 PM

38. Their family compound is in Wichita, Kansas . . . here's how their Governor

 

is working out for that state:

http://www.discussionist.com/1015774213

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #38)

Tue Mar 29, 2016, 08:57 AM

62. linking a post

by LMPV as proof? Hope you never have to defend a thesis.

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Response to Cave Dweller (Reply #62)

Tue Mar 29, 2016, 11:18 AM

63. That's rich coming from a Con -- Cons rarely even

 

deign to give any source whatsoever.

But of course, if you had clicked the link--which you didn't because that's too much like research apparently--you would have found an excerpt and this source:

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/bad-worse-sam-brownbacks-kansas

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Response to nolidad (Original post)

Mon Mar 28, 2016, 05:36 PM

52. Billionaires who couldnt spend all their money if they tried.

Who are trying to make cutbacks on the poor.

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Response to nolidad (Original post)

Tue Mar 29, 2016, 12:40 AM

56. You know how hard slave owners fought to stop the progress

to wealth created not by free manual labour but paid manual labour and/or coal, water, etc... the Koch brothers are waging an equal civil war to hold onto their cheap energy source: fossil fuels and to ensure the country doesn't turn away from wealth created that humanity destroying way.

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Response to gowiththrottleup (Reply #56)

Tue Mar 29, 2016, 08:26 AM

60. I have it on good authority that even if we don't have the slave label

we should treat our bosses like they are our masters. And that we should bow to them as if they were our god.

Says so, right in the christian user manual. (from above)

Eph.6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

Doesn't matter that our country was based on the premise that no man is another man's master (even had a constitutional amendment to spell it out)

the other, older work supersedes it.

Makes me wonder why we ever gave up corporal punishment on the job.


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Response to exindy (Reply #60)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 07:54 PM

88. Too bad you do not know how to understand the Bible

and you intentionally pluck a verse out of its context to twist it to your own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16



Here is the whole verse in its context about work:

5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:

8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

Just sad you can not use Gods Word with honesty.

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Response to gowiththrottleup (Reply #56)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 07:50 PM

87. Oh mercy heavens!

So they are ion the oil industry! Which BTW caused the world to explode exponentially into greater wealth for more than in all other history.

They pay some of the highest wages- give cadillac benefits and want to stay in business! Shame on them!

When you give up your vehicle and go 100% energy that is not fossil fuel. get rid of all plastics and odn't eat any food grown with most fertilizers, get back to me about your faux concern about the environment! Other wise it seems to me you are being hypocritical in condemning two men who supply much of your lifestyle!

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Response to nolidad (Original post)

Mon Apr 4, 2016, 03:16 AM

86. What really got

the left up in arms over those two was that back in its infancy well before being co-opted by the religious right when still a continuation of the Ron Paul revolution, it was one of the organizations that the Koch's help fund that stepped up and helped all those tiny separated truly grass roots groups organize their intra-group communication and planning efforts to help them become the Tea Party movement. Those groups without that support were very good at organizing locally for their efforts but had no central engine to bring them together until that help came along. The left blames the Koch brothers for Tea Party because of this.

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