Cultureanoathtotheconstitution

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 09:39 AM

What is an unlawful order?

I'm back from the timeout chair

Last week somebody posted a story about some idiot going to arrest a Congress Critter and it was mentioned that Oath Keepers disowned him. I was invited to comment but I was still being muzzled so I will comment now.

Oath Keepers isn't about standing up against the Government. (Considering we ARE the Government.)

It's about standing DOWN when given an unlawful order. An example of an unlawful order was just given by (the civilians at) the Pentagon.

American Military Personnel were told to ignore the rape of children by our "allies", as it is their "culture"! Our Soldiers said BULL SHIT! and it was in the media the same day.

I am pretty damn sure child rape is a crime everywhere, ignoring it would have made us complicit. and the Bozos who put that out are having to walk it back and say they never said it.

That is how you handle an unlawful order.

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Arrow 38 replies Author Time Post
Reply What is an unlawful order? (Original post)
Gunslinger201 Sep 2015 OP
nolens volens Sep 2015 #1
Gunslinger201 Sep 2015 #2
nolens volens Sep 2015 #3
Gunslinger201 Sep 2015 #4
oldenuff35 Sep 2015 #24
rahtruelies Sep 2015 #31
oldenuff35 Sep 2015 #33
Gunslinger201 Sep 2015 #36
Grumpy Pickle Sep 2015 #5
Gunslinger201 Sep 2015 #6
Grumpy Pickle Sep 2015 #7
Gunslinger201 Sep 2015 #8
RATFINK_5.0 Sep 2015 #9
i verglas Sep 2015 #32
Gunslinger201 Sep 2015 #37
His Daughter Sep 2015 #13
Gunslinger201 Sep 2015 #38
Kelley Sep 2015 #10
Gunslinger201 Sep 2015 #12
Kelley Sep 2015 #34
His Daughter Sep 2015 #11
Gunslinger201 Sep 2015 #15
His Daughter Sep 2015 #17
Gunslinger201 Sep 2015 #23
His Daughter Sep 2015 #25
oldenuff35 Sep 2015 #14
Gunslinger201 Sep 2015 #16
oldenuff35 Sep 2015 #18
His Daughter Sep 2015 #19
oldenuff35 Sep 2015 #27
His Daughter Sep 2015 #28
oldenuff35 Sep 2015 #29
His Daughter Sep 2015 #30
oldenuff35 Sep 2015 #35
oldenuff35 Sep 2015 #20
_eek Sep 2015 #22
BlackSabbath Sep 2015 #21
Banshee 3 Actual Sep 2015 #26

Response to Gunslinger201 (Original post)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 09:46 AM

1. Except in Afghanistan

several good men, enlisted and officer corps, have had their careers ruined for the child molestations they attempted to stop and report.

That's a hard thing to put right post facto....

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Response to nolens volens (Reply #1)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 09:50 AM

2. I really hope Congress intervenes

Those Men should not only be reinstated, but those who decided to let them go should be cashiered

We are the force for good in the world

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Response to Gunslinger201 (Reply #2)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 09:53 AM

3. Yes well

I would like to see that as well, but I'm not betting any real money that Duncan Hunter can get some traction.

I do respect his spirit and determinatoin in trying to fix this though...

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Response to nolens volens (Reply #3)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 09:58 AM

4. Boehner is just the first

Said it before,

There's a Storm coming

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Response to Gunslinger201 (Reply #2)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:57 PM

24. So you would trash all military discipline and still expect our military to function.

You would violate our host nation agreements by committing a prohibited act and still expect to be welcome in these nations?

I think you missed the part about following orders and not being able to make individual decisions while in the military.

I fully understand that by your morals, ethics, and the laws that we live under in our nation that you believe these acts to be wrong but we are not discussing right or wrong here. We are talking about following orders or the consequences of not following those legal given orders. We are talking also about violating a legally binding host nation agreement and the laws of the host nation and the potential consequences of that as well.


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Response to oldenuff35 (Reply #24)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 02:33 PM

31. Hmmmmmmm.........................

"You would violate our host nation agreements by committing a prohibited act and still expect to be welcome in these nations? "

Maybe we don't need child raping perverts as 'allies'.

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Response to rahtruelies (Reply #31)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 04:32 PM

33. That is a different question but lets not do the strawman thing right now.

Soldiers do not get to make up their minds about following every order. If the order is legal then not to follow that order will have consequences. To complain when you have decided to put yourself in the path of those consequences is a bit stupid. For whatever reason you made your decision it is yours as are the consequences of that decision.

I in no way excuse their actions or customs, I actually detest them. But our military functions on military discipline. Without it the military fails to be effective.

In the context of legal orders, Can you imagine what it is like to have to give an order that you know will cause some of your own to die. Can you imagine what it is like to get those orders when you know following them will cause yourself or others around you to die. Talk about having incentive not to follow orders, but you still must every single time.

Military life and existence is all about orders, giving them and getting them and as long as they are legal, obeying them no matter what. If you like them or hate them is not even a question involved in the equation.

Every military member raised their hands and took an oath to follow those orders, even the tough ones.

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Response to oldenuff35 (Reply #24)

Tue Sep 29, 2015, 06:04 AM

36. If the order violates my conscience, yes

I still work for the Military, every year we have to do the DoD human trafficking training. They are telling us it's now a crime to rent a prostitute on deployment (Olongapo city is still a fond memory to me)

But then to tell people to ignore child rape because it's "their culture" is way past ridiculousness

Afghan Culture is Muslim Culture. Islam condones Child Rape. Islam needs to be put on the ash heap of history with Naziism and Communism

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Response to Gunslinger201 (Original post)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 10:01 AM

5. Time out chair ?

Certain groups are seen as having special protection status on this site I`ve noticed.

Currently the special group is muslims.

Can`t criticize US gov officials for telling the soldiers to " look the other way " if a child is being raped.. coz it might offend muslims.

Can`t criticize the thousands refugees over-running Europe.. coz it might offend muslims

Can`t criticize Clock Boy or his family... coz it might offend muslims.

Can`t have teachers and police officers properly assess a security risk at a US high school....coz it might offend muslims.

Apparently the First Amendment has been suspended...coz it might offend muslims.

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Response to Grumpy Pickle (Reply #5)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 10:04 AM

6. Yes, I had some adverse jury decisions

Evidently because I am a Crusader Infidel

I've worked myself down to zero hides before!

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Response to Gunslinger201 (Reply #6)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 10:09 AM

7. I have been repeatedly called an Islamaphobe by

about a dozen posters ! ( usual LW swarm )

I probably fit in the Crusader Infidel category as well.

Next they will be accusing me of running Gitmo.





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Response to Grumpy Pickle (Reply #7)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 10:14 AM

8. Tell them what I tell them

A Phobia is an irrational fear, there is nothing irrational about fearing Islam





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Response to Gunslinger201 (Reply #8)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 10:38 AM

9. Is that an exploding pumpkin' ?

G.S. ?

Cause you have much splainin' 2 do , pumpkin.

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Response to Gunslinger201 (Reply #8)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 03:56 PM

32. nobody's accused you of being afraid

 

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Response to i verglas (Reply #32)

Tue Sep 29, 2015, 06:06 AM

37. Nobody has accused me of being smart either

But to quote a great seafaring mariner

"I yam what I yam"

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Response to Gunslinger201 (Reply #6)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:07 PM

13. You mean one of these?



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Response to His Daughter (Reply #13)

Tue Sep 29, 2015, 06:09 AM

38. That's great, I bought these for the Paraloft Crew



We were doing something for "special projects"

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Response to Gunslinger201 (Original post)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 11:43 AM

10. What is an unlawful order?

That will be determined by members of your General Court Martial board.

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Response to Kelley (Reply #10)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:06 PM

12. I am pretty up on the UCMJ

Other than the "Penetration, however slight, no longer constitutes an offense" update to the Sodomy laws.

Bring it, I request a Special Court Martial

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Response to Gunslinger201 (Reply #12)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 06:39 PM

34. Might be wrong, but the last time I checked the UCMJ

You do not get a choice of what flavor of flavor of Court Martial you get. That is determined by the Article 32 proceedings and the convening authority.

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Response to Gunslinger201 (Original post)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:05 PM

11. Technically one that is illegal, immoral, or from an improper authority

I know you have heard that line before. I have never had a problem with that in the military. Child rape is also against international law, so there was grounds to declare it an illegal order. I am hopeful the Obama administration will be so embarrassed by this that they will change its position.

The two (?) soldiers who were dismissed had charges made against them and upheld by the uniformed chain of command. Not sure why you claimed it was civilians.

As a civilian I see many more illegal orders issued by police and local governments than I ever saw in the active duty military. The simple act of asking for a warrant makes them crazy. BTDT.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #11)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:18 PM

15. I don't believe the Uniformed Chain of Command

Would tell subordinates to ignore child rape because it was "their culture". They would have totally lost Leadership Credibility at that point.

I am speculating (but with experience) that political appointees of this administration would not hesitate to push a policy that messed up

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Response to Gunslinger201 (Reply #15)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:32 PM

17. Civilians cannot prefer charges

Moreover how would they even know it happened?

While I have not dug into this, I have no details on how this happened internal to the military, just a news blurb that a SFC was being kicked out. Can you point me to the good gouge

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Response to Gunslinger201 (Reply #23)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:58 PM

25. That fills in many of the holes, thanks

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Response to Gunslinger201 (Original post)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:17 PM

14. the right and wrong of it are pretty easy to see.

It is the part about authority and jurisdiction that you want to overlook.

The bases we are on are still their ground, under their laws, and their customs.

We have zero law enforcement authority or jurisdiction and are not there to enforce their laws and have zero legal authority or jurisdiction to do so.

That is just a hard and cold fact. All of these things, rules, guidelines, are well defined in the the host nation agreement by our government and theirs. An order given by our military to abide by that agreement is not illegal. That order may violate your morals, your ethics, or your religion, but it is not an illegal or unlawful order.

Unlawful is a very descriptive word and in it you will find the answer to your question. We are not there to enforce their laws, in fact host nation agreements specifically prohibit this activity.

Even in our own country an active duty military person, with the exception of the coast guard, is not allowed to act as Police and enforce civilian law. We still have our rights as citizens but when you are actually on duty and in uniform even here these boundaries are pretty firm.

The Posse Comitatus Act

https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R42659.pdf


http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1251/MR1251.AppD.pdf

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Response to oldenuff35 (Reply #14)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:21 PM

16. IGNORING it is the unlawful part

And Afghan culture is Muslim culture and Islam condones it. I do not. I would not ignore it

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Response to Gunslinger201 (Reply #16)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:41 PM

18. Then there would be consequences.

And being right by your moral, ethical, and religious standards would be no defense for your actions in their country and under their laws and customs.

If you do something knowing that there will be consequences for that action then there is no room for complaint, objection, or expectation for relief, when those consequences become reality.

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Response to oldenuff35 (Reply #18)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:45 PM

19. What if it were against "international law"

which child abuse and trafficking in persons is.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #19)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 01:18 PM

27. authority and jurisdiction again. It is not there in this.

Are you trying to support that one individual has the right to be judge and enforcement in international law all by themselves against the orders of their superiors?

Each person should have that ability, is that your argument?

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Response to oldenuff35 (Reply #27)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 01:42 PM

28. I suggest you look at the approach taken by the Bundeswehr.

Which is very serious about not repeating WWII in terms of ethical lapses. Every officer gets the full dose. Enlisted get a more limited version IIRC.

There was an incident in 2005 when the ransomed Italian reporter and her escort were shot at by a US Army while almost running a checkpoint (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Giuliana_Sgrena). US troops were called murderers and assassins. However, no line unit would accept orders that said to assassinate or murder civilians. It would be an illegal order.


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Response to His Daughter (Reply #28)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 01:47 PM

29. You are bridging a big canyon.

One of not taking steps to interfere V one of having the problem literally driven into your face.

You are also getting close to Bowe Bergdahl's defense.

Since you brought up death at the hands of Americans following orders lest look at that for a moment.

In the Vietnam conflict we had both chopper pilots and fighter/bomber pilots who refused to fire on or drop bombs on the enemy because they believed that there was a high probability of killing civilians. Their defense was about the same as everyone is indicating here. "I have the right to do this because I know it is the right thing to do."

When the military was done with them in court they were dishonorably discharged for failure to follow lawful direct orders. They made their decisions but they also paid the consequences of their actions.


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Response to oldenuff35 (Reply #29)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 02:06 PM

30. Admittedly it is a fine line, though I don't see the bridging that you do in my position.

Intentionally targeting and killing known civilians is a war crime. Orders to do so are illegal. Undertaking missions that have a potential for civilian collateral damage is not, unless you are Israel then it is a war crime according to the UN.

The unit and the soldier (he was identified) who shot up the car in the 2005 Italian incident were NOT told to shoot civilians but was following ROE for a vehicle that was not complying with directions to stop. Same result some say, but the orders and intent are different.

Generally speaking the US military does not have an ethically ambiguous policy. We don't target civilians and within practical levels we try to minimize them. However, if you are civilian sleeping in a terrorist bunk house and the Reaper comes calling, oh well.



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Response to His Daughter (Reply #30)

Tue Sep 29, 2015, 03:56 AM

35. You are playing with threat in this as well

If a vehicle runs a checkpoint in this day and age you must assume they have a bomb and you must do what ever it takes and whatever you can to stop the vehicle.
The military does not function on individuals making their own decisions. Seldom are they going to be aware of the big picture.

Homicide bombers are getting younger and more often are female now so anything forceful you have to go to the trigger quicker now.

We are kind of into the what if game and that never ends an no one ends up right.

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Response to Gunslinger201 (Reply #16)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:47 PM

20. If ignoring it would be unlawful

Then acting on breaches of their laws would always be lawful. That is specifically prohibited by host nation agreements in every nation where we have bases.

Reporting is one thing. Entering into their private areas and acting as law enforcement is not going to work out well for you because it is prohibited by signed agreements.

You can not logically sustain this argument.

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Response to Gunslinger201 (Reply #16)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:52 PM

22. I get what you are saying, and would likely be in the same position.

But fact is we ignore, and even actively collude with locals under some fairly unsavory practice, and have since the beginning. From Oneida and Tuscarora Indian nations, support of the Katipunan, to the Hmong, and even right up to the Peshmerga in modern times, we have allowed and even relied on "savages" to do our savagery for us. Oft times fighting right beside them.

All the more reason to leave AFG to it's own devices, save for the occasional punitive raid, or drone strike. Nothing to be gained for our troops and national interest.

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Response to oldenuff35 (Reply #14)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 12:49 PM

21. right and wrong

 

often have nothing to do with the law.

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Response to oldenuff35 (Reply #14)

Mon Sep 28, 2015, 01:09 PM

26. Insurrection act can negate Posse Comitatus restrictions

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Cultureanoathtotheconstitution