Culturecultureliberalschristianity

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 04:00 AM

Wednesday Morning, Da Mannn Posted A

Long OP titled "60 Hard Truths About Liberals:"

https://www.discussionist.com/1016234948

I'm on board with almost all of that essay. But one of the author's premises bothers me. He assumes that those of us who oppose the liberal agenda and the ramming of socialism down our citizens' throats do so because we're Christians.

For example: "In the depraved thought processes of a Liberal, abortion becomes necessary to guarantee sexual freedom and eliminate moral consequence."

I have no religious or moral objection to abortion. I'm all for keeping it safe and legal. (I'm NOT for public funding.) I do wonder if perhaps repeated abortions have a negative impact on the psychological or physical health of the mother. But since I have no medical training, all I do is wonder.

Also from Da Mannn's post: "A genuine Christian populace will live moral lives and thus they will support governmental policy that encourages individual, personal, moral responsibility ... A morally debauched populace will look to the government to support them and shelter them from their bad moral choices ... for the collectivist Liberal bent on imposing socialism upon a nation, Christianity is the number one enemy ... Christianity must be eliminated."

I resent the implication that only Christians live moral lives and value individual responsibility.

Also: "... In order for Liberals to impose socialism upon a people, they must undermine the ability of the people to govern themselves according to God's moral law."

Is God the only one with a moral law?? What's wrong with the moral law of common sense, responsibility, and compassion??

Also: "If Liberals are successful at transforming America into a totally multi-cultural, i.e., multi-religious, non-Christian society, we will lose our freedom."

Are those our only options?? Do we have to be a liberal nation OR a Christian nation?? Can't we have a secular nation that rejects liberal nonsense in favor of responsibility and freedom??

Also: "Liberals are extremely intolerant concerning Christianity because of its insistence upon personal responsibility and moral absolutes ... self reliance and rugged individualism are traits that are only found amongst moral peoples who come from strong families."

This one I totally agree with.

There's more, but you get my point. There are a lot of us who live a Christian life, who preach AND practice Christian virtues without actually believing.

21 replies, 1019 views

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Arrow 21 replies Author Time Post
Reply Wednesday Morning, Da Mannn Posted A (Original post)
Bubba Jul 2017 OP
Ursus Magnus Jul 2017 #1
Grateful Bread Jul 2017 #5
Tolk Jul 2017 #8
Grateful Bread Jul 2017 #15
Tolk Jul 2017 #18
Ursus Magnus Jul 2017 #16
Grateful Bread Jul 2017 #17
Post removed Jul 2017 #19
Grateful Bread Jul 2017 #21
Cold Warrior Jul 2017 #2
graham4anything4HC45 Jul 2017 #3
Cold Warrior Jul 2017 #4
Ursus Magnus Jul 2017 #20
Social_Justice Jul 2017 #6
TM999 Jul 2017 #7
Cold Warrior Jul 2017 #9
TM999 Jul 2017 #10
Cold Warrior Jul 2017 #11
TM999 Jul 2017 #12
Cold Warrior Jul 2017 #13
TM999 Jul 2017 #14

Response to Bubba (Original post)

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 04:02 AM

1. God loves you anyway.

 

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Response to Ursus Magnus (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 07:48 AM

5. God hates you

 

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Response to Grateful Bread (Reply #5)

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 09:56 AM

8. Jesus

 

Would slap the shit out of you

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Response to Tolk (Reply #8)

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 04:27 PM

15. Nah

 

I've got a nail gun!

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Response to Grateful Bread (Reply #15)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:16 AM

18. Touche'

 

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Response to Grateful Bread (Reply #5)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 05:34 AM

16. You're so cute.

 

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Response to Ursus Magnus (Reply #16)

Sun Jul 16, 2017, 08:15 AM

17. Thank you

 

I'm flattered, really, but I don't swing that way.

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Response to Grateful Bread (Reply #17)


Response to Post removed (Reply #19)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 06:47 AM

21. Interesting

 

You make a pass at me, and then tell me I'm gay, as if that were an insult.

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Response to Bubba (Original post)

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 04:34 AM

2. Completely (almost) agree with you

Clearly morals are not dependent upon Christianity or any other religion. Morality is a societal construct as it is impossible for a society to properly function if murder and stealing are formally condoned by that society. Looking at the revered 10 commandments, for example, the first four have nothing to do with morality but were rather the result of internal religious power plays. The last codifies slavery as part of God's will. They clearly have little to do with morality.

I would slightly disagree with the assertion that liberals (not regressive liberals) beat on Christianity because of its insistence on personal responsibility. As an aside, I would argue that any religion that promotes faith over works does exactly the opposite. However, I think most atheists (I've switched from "liberals" as there are many conservative atheists) decry Christianity simply for the absurdity of its propositions, e.g. 6000 year old earth, 500 year old man and sons building a boat, filling it with two, or seven, of every "kind" of animal, and surviving a worldwide flood, God stopping "the sun" and then throwing rocks at his chosen people's enemies. However, many don't, and should not, limit their criticisms to Christianity, but extend them to all religions for the same reason.

In the words of the Hitch - "Religion poisons everything."

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #2)

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 06:12 AM

3. In the words of John Lennon- nothing to kill or die for. BTW, NOT a fan of Hitchens early or late

btw, John Lennon came first.

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Response to graham4anything4HC45 (Reply #3)

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 07:03 AM

4. God Graham, please don't quote that insipid song on a Saturday morning

The Hitch would have regarded, as I do, that song as a fluffy distractionin in any discussion regarding Sky Daddies. Lennon is certainly the most overrated of the Beatles.

As to your attitude toward Hitchens, the reasons are obvious. He insulted YOUR gods...


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Response to graham4anything4HC45 (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 17, 2017, 03:03 AM

20. John Lennon was a drug fried, one world stooge.

 

He married that walking air raid siren. Shows HIS mental functionality

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #2)

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 08:28 AM

6. Of the thousands of Christians I have met, only the smallest percent takes the 6000 ...

...year old earth view, and even then, the proposition that a truly Christian population will live ....and act....in a more moral manner. That is truth by definition.

That truth does not deny that a purely Budhist population will also act in a more moral manner..

But Christian, by and large, like Budhists, by and large, do not abide by the premise that it is faith alone, but, rather it is faith put into action that works. Without action, faith is worthless.

What is referred to as absurdities in religions, should also be largely broadened to include all cultural systems.
Look at the liberal political culture: Hillary is one of the smartest women. Absurd!
Look at the Atheist culture: Religion poisons society. Absurd!
Look at Conspiracy theory culture: Men did not land on the moon. Absurd!
Look at older Scientific Archeology culture. The mythology of the City of Troy is imaginary. Absurd!

Look at hedonist culture: Die with the most toys wins. Absurd to me!
Look at American Culture: We are the Best. Absurd!
Look at American history school curriculum... Much absurdity!

Absurdity runs rampant in all cultures, especially to someone not part of that culture. Pointing out absurdities in other cultures is a waste of time. It's probably better to examine personal absurdities.

Peace Be Unto You.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #2)

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 09:06 AM

7. You would be wrong.

What do you think is the basis for the societal construct in the West? The Judeo-Christian tradition, of course. No modern, whether left or right, Christian, Buddhist, pagan, anti-theist, or agnostic created their morality outside of the influence of that Christian tradition. We are steeped in it!

And just to nitpick, the 10th commandment is about not coveting.

While this is a generalization there is truth to the assertion that more liberals are non-Christian than conservatives. Though at one time liberals and conservatives were rather equally Christian and religious in this country. This is a decidedly end of the 20th beginning of the 21st century phenomena. Hence in part, the reason for that list.

And the absurdities you mention, please get straight that only the most fundamentalist and literalist of non-mainstream Protestants preach, teach, or believe such things. For the rest of modern Christians, science is not at odds with faith. They are two distinct realms of belief. Stories such as Noah and the Ark are not literal or historical, they are allegory, mythology, and metaphor. This has always been my biggest problem with most modern anti-theist. Y'all left weird literalist minority Christian traditions and believe that the majority are just the same. They are not.

Claiming that 'religion poisons everything' is like claiming that guns need to be banned because they are why there is murder. Religion is an integral part of humanities history. If we didn't have it, I argue that psychologically, we have to create it today. And in fact most who claim to not be 'religious' do so. They embrace philosophies, politics, sports teams, etc. with religious fervor. Hell anti-theist are some of the most 'religious' folks I have ever seen! They have holy books, prophets, phrases, and many of the hallmarks of the very thing they are trying, but are not really succeeding in leaving behind. James, whom I agree with, correctly stated that religion is a collection of those actions, feelings, and experiences that each of us alone makes in relation to the 'divine'. And the 'divine' is any object that we psychologically imbue solemnity or gravity. I like Tillich who said that religion is a study of the faith we have in those things that ultimately concern each of us individually. When we agree and share in ritual and social interactions, we typically label that as being 'religious'.

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Response to TM999 (Reply #7)

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 10:18 AM

9. You make a number of different and interesting points

You say that no modern nation (not sure if you're limiting to western nations as per previous sentence) created their morality without the influence of Christianity. If you mean by this that Christianity as a religious-military force has impacted virtually every nation on earth, then I would agree. If you're saying that Christianity brought morality, or fundamentally shaped the morality of all of those nations, then the statement is demonstrably false. It almost sounds as if you're saying that there was no morality before Christianity.

As a western example, Greece is now Christian but was a moral society, given the context of morality derived from Christian teachings, prior to becoming Christian. A multitude of other examples exist outside of the west. The Golden Rule was well known before Christ.

I'm not sure about your assertion of the increasing percentage of liberals who are non-Christians. Could be. As a Boomer, I was not raised in a particularly religious household although both my parents professed to be Christians and occasionally went to church. Although I have visited many of the great cathedrals and churches of Europe, I can count on my fingers (and maybe a few toes ) the number of times I've been in a church for religious purposes. So I'm really not like a smoker who has given up on cigarettes and continually crusades against smoking.

As to the number of YECs another poster asserted that the number was small so I googled about. How the question is phrased dramatically impacts the result but, with neutrally phrased questions it appears to be between 10%-18% of the populace. That would translate to a larger range of Christians as an atheist would almost certainly not answer in any way that would misidentify as a YEC.

https://ncse.com/blog/2013/11/just-how-many-young-earth-creationists-are-there-us-0015164

As to Hitchen's famous phrase that religion poisons everything, while slightly hyperbolic, has its share of truth. . Skipping the obvious example of Islam, it could cite numerous ways in which Christianity does indeed do that. For example the Catholic Church's position on condoms in AIDS-rife areas of the world. The conventional Christian response is to point to the good works and charities provided by various Christian agencies. That's a separate debate that perhaps we'll have one day.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #9)

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 11:16 AM

10. I never said nation. I said no modern person

in the west (no matter what their self-identification is with regards to religion) created their morality without the influence of our Christian culture. You will be equally hard pressed to find the ethics and moralities of the East unshaped or uninfluenced by the 2500 year long tradition of Buddhism. Like it or not, religion shapes culture and culture shapes morality. As a modern person, we are not isolated from the traditions and teachings that came before us.

I mean Christianity as a cultural force. It is a myth that Christianity spread entirely by the sword. That was a very small fraction of the conversions of entire nations. More Christians died by the hands of Jews, Pagans, and Muslims than they killed of any of those populations.

Yes, there was the study of ethics and morality in Greco-Roman philosophies, however, you are wrong about there being a 'Golden Rule' expressed therein. Like the Confucian 'version' most ancient pagan philosophies said the Golden Rule applied to 'relevant others' not 'all others' as it is exemplified in the teachings of Jesus. So yes, the Golden Rule as we know it today (I didn't say it was practiced universally, though I wish it could be!) is a decidedly Christian uniqueness and rooted in the Jewish law as well from whence it originated.

As to YEC, even if we use the full 18% of Christians just in the US, let alone the rest of the world, that comes out to less than 4 million people, which is the population of Phoenix and the surrounding suburbs. Compared to the rest of Christians in the US, that is a minuscule amount. To judge the entire religion based on that seems fallacious. I no more judge how agnostic/atheists will act given how a small subset of anti-theists act either.

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Response to TM999 (Reply #10)

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 11:23 AM

11. I'll give a more complete response later this evening or

tomorrow morning (my time) but I'm puzzled by your statement that "18% of Christians just in the US...comes out to less than 4 million people..."

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #11)

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 11:30 AM

12. 70% of the population in the US identifies as Christians

in one denomination or another. It is just math from there. 18% of that population amount is around 4 million people.

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Response to TM999 (Reply #12)

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 11:36 AM

13. I'm confused

Let's say that the population of the US is 330M. If 70% identify as Christians as you say, that's 231M. 18% of that is 41.5M, not 4M.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #13)

Sat Jul 15, 2017, 12:01 PM

14. You are right.

My math was off by a decimal point. Even still that is not a significant number of individuals but I do agree it is too much. YEC at this level of belief is a relatively new phenomena and I expect it to lessen as quickly as it arose.

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