Cultureculture

Wed May 16, 2018, 10:53 AM

Why socialism is bad

"What John Oliver is saying is just dangerous ... it propagandizes people into believing that a system responsible for the mass death of hundreds of millions of people is benevolent and, in some cases, philanthropic and maybe with a little bit of better management we could fix it next time. No. Socialism fails." —Dan Bongino

63 replies, 439 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 63 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why socialism is bad (Original post)
Jack Burton May 16 OP
Solesurvivor May 16 #1
Jack Burton May 16 #3
beer can May 16 #4
Currentsitguy May 16 #14
Solesurvivor May 16 #16
adozenpirates May 17 #56
Solesurvivor May 16 #17
rahtruelies May 16 #18
smoke check May 16 #30
oflguy May 17 #49
liberalguy May 16 #22
Solesurvivor May 16 #24
liberalguy May 16 #25
Jack Burton May 16 #29
liberalguy May 16 #33
Jack Burton May 16 #36
liberalguy May 16 #39
TendiesForBreakfast May 16 #43
smoke check May 16 #31
liberalguy May 16 #34
smoke check May 16 #41
TendiesForBreakfast May 16 #44
safestuffer May 16 #37
liberalguy May 16 #38
safestuffer May 16 #40
smoke check May 16 #42
shogun May 16 #26
liberalguy May 16 #35
oflguy May 17 #50
liberalguy May 17 #55
oflguy May 17 #63
rahtruelies May 17 #53
liberalguy May 17 #54
Jack Burton May 17 #57
rahtruelies May 17 #62
orson May 16 #2
rahtruelies May 16 #19
Scary Red May 16 #5
Muddling Through May 16 #6
Scary Red May 16 #7
Muddling Through May 16 #8
Scary Red May 16 #9
Muddling Through May 16 #10
Scary Red May 16 #11
Muddling Through May 16 #12
orson May 16 #27
Muddling Through May 16 #28
Scary Red May 17 #45
FreeWheelBurning May 16 #13
Scary Red May 17 #46
rahtruelies May 16 #15
Scary Red May 17 #47
rahtruelies May 17 #52
Scary Red May 17 #58
Jack Burton May 17 #59
Scary Red May 17 #60
adozenpirates May 17 #61
liberalguy May 16 #21
smoke check May 16 #32
liberalguy May 16 #20
Iron Condor May 16 #23
Will Morningstar May 17 #48
oflguy May 17 #51

Response to Jack Burton (Original post)

Wed May 16, 2018, 10:56 AM

1. What socialist country is doing well? They never seem to answer that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Solesurvivor (Reply #1)

Wed May 16, 2018, 11:10 AM

3. Yeah but they are all equally miserable.











Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Solesurvivor (Reply #1)

Wed May 16, 2018, 11:12 AM

4. Denmark Sweden

Switzerland Finland New Zealand just to name some

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beer can (Reply #4)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:21 PM

14. I hadn't realized

Those countries nationalized vast swaths of their industrial and private sector. Just because a country has high taxation rates and an overly generous social welfare system does not make you socialist.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beer can (Reply #4)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:36 PM

16. They aren't socialist

Didn't the PM of Denmark come out and blast Sanders saying their country isn't socialist, they have a lot of social programs but they're not socialist

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Solesurvivor (Reply #16)

Thu May 17, 2018, 02:07 PM

56. I think it's fair to say they aren't socialist.

That said, state owned enterprises are a significant portion of the Nordic countries' economies (of course, government ownership isn't the only way to "do" socialism). But the Scandinavian states are more socialist than Venezuela in almost any way one cares to measure it. A larger portion of the workforce is employed by the government in those countries than Venezuela, union density is higher, etc.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beer can (Reply #4)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:37 PM

17. Are you being serious of just trolling? because if its the latter then you're trolling badly :(

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beer can (Reply #4)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:39 PM

18. Switzerland is not a socialist State and the other four are all committing suicide by turd world

immigration.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beer can (Reply #4)

Wed May 16, 2018, 04:33 PM

30. Those aren't socialist countries. They are capitalist welfare states.

In Switzerland and Finland the economy does not function nearly as well as it could do to the massive welfare state albatross and people live in 700 sq. ft. apartments. Is that what you want for us?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to beer can (Reply #4)

Thu May 17, 2018, 06:05 AM

49. fail beer can

Those countries are not socialist

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Solesurvivor (Reply #1)

Wed May 16, 2018, 01:08 PM

22. Which of the below countries is less socialist than us?

Healthy life expectancy in years



Cuban men have longer healthy lives than we do.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberalguy (Reply #22)

Wed May 16, 2018, 01:22 PM

24. Having govt paid healthcare doesn't make you socialist

again I ask what country that is socialist is doing well?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Solesurvivor (Reply #24)

Wed May 16, 2018, 01:48 PM

25. I want to be like Norway. Are they socialist?

Norway. Not Venezuela, not North Korea and not Cuba.

So please make up your mind, do I as a liberal desire a socialist hellscape of social democracy like that offered be every other OEDC country?

Even Greeks live healthy lives one year longer than we do.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberalguy (Reply #25)

Wed May 16, 2018, 03:59 PM

29. Oh. You want to finance government programs using oil money?

That is what Norway does. It exports oil to fund the government. Without oil income it could not fund the social programs. Socialist economics are not sustainable without an outside source paying.




https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-economy-insight-idUSBREA4703Z20140508
End of oil boom threatens Norway's welfare model
SLO (Reuters) - Norway’s energy boom is tailing off years ahead of expectations, exposing an economy unprepared for life after oil and threatening the long-term viability of the world’s most generous welfare model.

High spending within the sector has pushed up wages and other costs to unsustainable levels, not just for the oil and gas industry but for all sectors, and that is now acting as a drag on further energy investment. Norwegian firms outside oil have struggled to pick up the slack in what has been, for at least a decade, almost a single-track economy.

The fortunes of the oil industry, which accounts for a fifth of Norway’s economy, have shifted abruptly as the global oil sector slammed on the brakes. Costs are spiking and capital spending has been so high that energy firms are selling assets to pay dividends. With oil prices seen falling this year and next, appetite for capital expenditure is low. Investments, which tripled over the past decade, are now seen declining in the years ahead, confounding earlier expectations for a steady increase, while oil production remains flat, despite years of heavy spending.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jack Burton (Reply #29)

Wed May 16, 2018, 05:27 PM

33. Why not? We produce a hell of a lot more of it than Norway does.

But that would mean nationalizing the wells - which I'm totally okay with.

Odd that you think that the oil under a country is "an outside source"

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberalguy (Reply #33)

Wed May 16, 2018, 06:05 PM

36. But what about global warming?

So destroying the earth with fossil fuels is okay when it promotes socialism?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jack Burton (Reply #36)

Wed May 16, 2018, 06:39 PM

39. We're destroying the earth on behalf of British Petroleum.

Better we do neither, but if you're going to buy a new truck regardless, at least the money you spend on fuel should do some social good.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberalguy (Reply #33)

Wed May 16, 2018, 07:35 PM

43. Norway also has a homogeneous population the size of South Carolina.

Note how there's no European Union continental health service.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberalguy (Reply #25)

Wed May 16, 2018, 04:34 PM

31. How are you going to finance this?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to smoke check (Reply #31)

Wed May 16, 2018, 05:30 PM

34. Our GDP per capita is almost as high as theirs.

Kinda unsurprising that they got wealthier than us through high taxes, small military and social democracy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberalguy (Reply #34)

Wed May 16, 2018, 07:29 PM

41. Our military is small.

High taxes don't make a country wealthy, that's sheer stupidity.

Social Democracy? What is that? Democratic Socialism? Socialism is still socialism even if you try to paint a smiley face on it. In the end, it will always fail and always cause human misery.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberalguy (Reply #34)

Wed May 16, 2018, 07:47 PM

44. Norway got "wealthier" than us by basing their economy around oil and natural gas.



Problem comes when the price of oil collapses, and you lose $30,000 GDP per capita over a few years.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberalguy (Reply #25)

Wed May 16, 2018, 06:21 PM

37. People voluntarily eat shit food in this country.

You want to live longer than the American average? Don't eat shit food.

You don't need to fuck up our economy to live longer


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to safestuffer (Reply #37)

Wed May 16, 2018, 06:38 PM

38. They're also richer. Because socialism. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberalguy (Reply #38)

Wed May 16, 2018, 06:43 PM

40. Before or after taxes?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to safestuffer (Reply #37)

Wed May 16, 2018, 07:31 PM

42. I made the offer to liberalguy before.

Socialized healthcare in exchange for mandatory physical exercise, calorie budgets, elimination of sugar, alcohol, and tobacco, and harsher sentences for currently illegal drugs. He wouldn't take the offer.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberalguy (Reply #22)

Wed May 16, 2018, 02:31 PM

26. Go to Cuba

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to shogun (Reply #26)

Wed May 16, 2018, 05:32 PM

35. Take you awhile to think that one up?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberalguy (Reply #22)

Thu May 17, 2018, 06:07 AM

50. Which of those countries has fewer deaths from murder?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to oflguy (Reply #50)

Thu May 17, 2018, 12:46 PM

55. All of them. Yay for capitalism?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberalguy (Reply #55)

Thu May 17, 2018, 10:04 PM

63. Capitalism makes thugs murder people?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberalguy (Reply #22)

Thu May 17, 2018, 10:00 AM

53. USA stats improve greatly if the third world population is subtracted

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rahtruelies (Reply #53)

Thu May 17, 2018, 12:41 PM

54. Which "populations" bring down our batting average?

It's not mexicans turning this into a third world country - it's republicans.

Every state with the worst poverty, health, economies and educations are run by Republicans.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberalguy (Reply #54)

Thu May 17, 2018, 02:18 PM

57. You mean republican strongholds like

Detroit:


Baltimore:


LA:
?quality=85&strip=all&strip=all

St. Louis:


Chicago:

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberalguy (Reply #54)

Thu May 17, 2018, 05:40 PM

62. blacks and illegal immigrants

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jack Burton (Original post)

Wed May 16, 2018, 11:08 AM

2. Another grifter heard from

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to orson (Reply #2)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:40 PM

19. ****** FAKE NEWS ALERT FROM THE DELUSIONAL IN THE 57 STATES*****

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jack Burton (Original post)

Wed May 16, 2018, 11:19 AM

5. This guy has no idea what socialism is, either...

It is not government control of the means of production, but societal control, and essentially pure democracy. We had experimental socialist governments in colonial times. They didn't work.

Communism is the extreme version of socialism that denies free market functioning and does give the "government" control over pretty much everything. It doesn't work, either.

The simple fact is that neither system works because they are inefficient and someone is always trying to game the system. That's what humans do. Capitalism, for all its faults, does have some measure of self-regulation simply because the gamers are more often after each other than the system. But they're after the system enough that there must be rules, and a government to enforce them.

Nowadays, economists (those are the people who actually went to school to study this stuff and don't self-promote nonsense on free video channels) generally look toward mixed economic systems, where we try to pick and choose from all systems for the pieces that work best.

Germany and Japan have done that quite well, but China is probably exemplar. Russia has fallen to corruption, Venezuela has fallen to incompetence, and N. Korea is just plain nuts. China, however, has chosen to be a communist/socialist country that works, at the expense of some fundamental freedoms. (you can't have everything)

It's not Mao's China any more.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scary Red (Reply #5)

Wed May 16, 2018, 11:24 AM

6. "It is not government control of the means of production, but societal control"

That's a distinction without difference. What entity ensures "societal control" of the means of production? The government.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Muddling Through (Reply #6)

Wed May 16, 2018, 11:30 AM

7. The distinction is subtle-- the difference between democracy and autocracy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scary Red (Reply #7)

Wed May 16, 2018, 11:34 AM

8. The distinction is non-existent.

Saying the means "belong to the people" still means the government is in control, rather than private owners.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Muddling Through (Reply #8)

Wed May 16, 2018, 11:39 AM

9. But the point is that people (supposedly) control the government...

You are saying that you would prefer to live and work under an autocratic boss than an autocratic government.

A pure democracy may be a specious dream, but a bootheel is still a bootheel.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scary Red (Reply #9)

Wed May 16, 2018, 11:42 AM

10. In a free society, I have a choice regarding employement.

Yes, a boss is an autocrat. That's how it works with private ownership of businesses. Good bosses run a company well and fairly to keep trained workers on staff.

With an autocratic government, one can be shot or sent to the gulag if productivity falls or quality does not meet standards. With an autocratic boss, one is simply fired and can seek other employment.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Muddling Through (Reply #10)

Wed May 16, 2018, 11:50 AM

11. You do realize that I am not promoting autocratic governments...

and in the democratic government you stand far less chance of being sent to the gulag.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scary Red (Reply #11)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:01 PM

12. I realize that.

The arc of history with regards to Socialist governments is clear, they become autocratic over time.

Please don't try to muddy the waters with references to Sweden, Norway or Denmark. They are free-market economies with representative governments. Venezuela under Chavez, and now Maduro are a clear example of what happens under a Socialist government.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Muddling Through (Reply #12)

Wed May 16, 2018, 03:46 PM

27. Yours is truly the only valid

definition of socialism./s

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to orson (Reply #27)

Wed May 16, 2018, 03:49 PM

28. I'm glad you recognize that.

There may be hope yet.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Muddling Through (Reply #12)

Thu May 17, 2018, 02:55 AM

45. I wouldn't think of bringing up Scandinavian countries as examples of socialism...

simply because they aren't. I bring up China, which is slowly moving away from it because they realize its limitations.

All governments run the risk of becoming autocratic. Plato made that abundantly clear, foretelling the collapse of the Roman Republic, and we now see it with Hungary, Poland, Turkey... Fine examples of democracy there.

Germany was a democracy for a while, but wasn't very experienced at it and when democracy failed it, "you know who" picked up the pieces.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scary Red (Reply #5)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:07 PM

13. quick question

How is society going to control production without using government?

Can you point to a modern nation that practices societal control over the means of a majority of that nation's production?

China is probably the closest example but Chinese citizens are not free. That is a price most are not willing to pay and that includes me. China will work as long as it continues to grow at a rapid pace. That is not possible over the long run.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to FreeWheelBurning (Reply #13)

Thu May 17, 2018, 03:01 AM

46. You said it...

"Government" is not innately evil. Broadly speaking, government is simply a tool that autocrats use to control and democrats use to organize. The alternative to government is anarchy, which tends not to work at all.

Theoretically, anarchy would be the purest form of democracy, but people tend to be assholes and plutocrats take advantage of them, so it never works. Tough enough to keep the bad guys at bay when there's a government with some juice.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scary Red (Reply #5)

Wed May 16, 2018, 12:36 PM

15. "It is not government control of the means of production, but societal control, and essentially

pure democracy. "

Soooooo, tell us just "pure democracy " does not produce a Government? A Government you have already admitted does not work?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rahtruelies (Reply #15)

Thu May 17, 2018, 03:07 AM

47. I admit that the use of "pure" wasn't the best wording, but...

as I have already said, humans are not capable of functioning for long under anarchy, so government of some sort is necessary.

True socialism (which doesn't exist anywhere) is analogous to employee ownership of a business.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scary Red (Reply #47)

Thu May 17, 2018, 09:57 AM

52. "True socialism (which doesn't exist anywhere) is analogous to employee ownership of a business. "

Employee owned business is common IRL.............................but tell me under 'True socialism' just who will own the Army and Police, eh?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rahtruelies (Reply #52)

Thu May 17, 2018, 02:37 PM

58. Details, details...

I am not defending it, merely explaining it. I am well aware those are problems. I know of a lot of other problems, too, but won't get into them.

If you really care, explore how those New England towns that govern by town meeting handle these things. Or Amish communities.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scary Red (Reply #58)

Thu May 17, 2018, 02:50 PM

59. It boils down to where do we draw the line?




What is the proper balance between the individual and the collective? Too much or too little and bad things usually happen. I submit more bad things happen when too much emphasis is placed on the collective. Those who believe they know better than you gravitate to the levers of government to achieve their dream. Those who rely upon themselves gravitate to doing for themselves and just want to be left alone.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jack Burton (Reply #59)

Thu May 17, 2018, 03:06 PM

60. Which Founders? Hamilton and Jefferson had radically different views...

Throw in Mason and Madison with Adams and you don't really know how they worked to get what we have.

And then Jackson wasn't really a Founder (only 10 years old and in Canada on 4/4/76) but he likely had the biggest effect on the new nation's future course.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jack Burton (Reply #59)

Thu May 17, 2018, 03:23 PM

61. Where to draw the line is an interesting way to put it.

I think you're on to something.

But I'm not sure what it means to emphasize the collective vs. the individual (or vice versa). A nation is a collective project by definition. Any business involving more than one person is a collective enterprise. People have either organized themselves (or been organized) into groups to accomplish big things for millennia - trying to put a stop to that is a fool's errand. To me, the question is more about the nature of authority and decision-making within these groups (a spectrum with dictatorship and one end and democracy at the other, I guess).

Also, I think your graphic isn't entirely accurate, but that's a different discussion.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scary Red (Reply #5)

Wed May 16, 2018, 01:05 PM

21. There may be a good argument that the nordic economies are healthy because their democracies are

And that we're fucked entirely because our elections are.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Scary Red (Reply #5)

Wed May 16, 2018, 04:42 PM

32. China is essentially a fascist state.

The government and the well-connected make money and also suppress anyone that wants to make money that isn't them. Then again, what you describe of socialism is, in fact, national socialism, almost exactly.

Economists have more often than not been repeatedly proven to be fools and knaves. The reason they support a "mixed economy" has more to do with the fact that they like to be able to exactly predict certain areas of the economy because the government essentially controls it. Without that government control of swaths of the economy, they have repeatedly proven themselves to be far less reliable than a 1970s weatherman.

Germany isn't a socialist state. Japan isn't a socialist state. Russia and Venezuela are what you get when you try socialism. North Korea is owed apologies and reparations by Russia and China for what they did.

I will take freedom every time. I might fail, hell I have fallen. At least I will have the opportunity to get back up. That doesn't exist in a socialist system.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jack Burton (Original post)

Wed May 16, 2018, 01:02 PM

20. NRA TV. LOL.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jack Burton (Original post)

Wed May 16, 2018, 01:11 PM

23. Question:

How come over the years we have witnessed thousands of people flee socialists countries to live in capitalist countries even though there was the very real possibility they may end up getting killed trying like thousands of others, but, we practically have never seen people from capitalists countries flee to live in socialists ones? Why is that?



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jack Burton (Original post)

Thu May 17, 2018, 03:49 AM

48. Very good OP, Jack.

Good discussion. Interesting read. Thank you all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Jack Burton (Original post)

Thu May 17, 2018, 06:09 AM

51. This thread is PROOF that liberals don't know what socialism is

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Cultureculture