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Sat Jul 28, 2018, 02:43 PM

An open letter to that dumb SOB in Walmart today.

As a federal prosecutor and former criminal investigator with 35 years in law enforcement, I just wanted to say that open carry in a Walmart (or anywhere else really) is a stupid idea. Since we both were armed (mine concealed) I think I might have some valid points here. First, you were using a pancake holster on a loose belt with no thumb-break. I would never do it, but how easy would it have been to take that Sig compact from you? Keep that weapon tight against your body, at least.

Next. Even though you might think you were protecting your wife, who was with you, you were doing the exact opposite. As a bad guy, you would have been my first target. After all, it's important to take out the greatest threat first, right? And friend, that was you. Now, since, as a bad guy, I'm probably not a truly excellent shot, the chances of hitting both you and your wife would be pretty good.

After you, I would have targeted any military or police looking people (you know military t-shirt and such) or those that appeared to be in good shape.

Then finally, and in no hurry, those typical run of the mill victim bastards. In my mind, they pose no threat at all, and I can just take my time shooting them.

Bottom line, take your head out of your ass and try to think tactically for a second. It just might save your life.

48 replies, 1283 views

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Arrow 48 replies Author Time Post
Reply An open letter to that dumb SOB in Walmart today. (Original post)
MeatSandwich Jul 2018 OP
JaimeBondoJr Jul 2018 #1
MeatSandwich Jul 2018 #8
Shkreli Jul 2018 #2
Meowmenow Jul 2018 #3
Shkreli Jul 2018 #6
Isidore Jul 2018 #36
Meowmenow Jul 2018 #39
Smoke Jul 2018 #4
MeatSandwich Jul 2018 #10
Smoke Jul 2018 #16
MeatSandwich Jul 2018 #20
Smoke Jul 2018 #45
MeatSandwich Jul 2018 #46
Countingman Jul 2018 #5
MeatSandwich Jul 2018 #7
Countingman Jul 2018 #9
MeatSandwich Jul 2018 #11
Red Bull Jul 2018 #12
Smoke Jul 2018 #18
MeatSandwich Jul 2018 #23
Smoke Jul 2018 #27
Smoke Jul 2018 #17
Time Jul 2018 #13
MeatSandwich Jul 2018 #21
Smoke Jul 2018 #28
MeatSandwich Jul 2018 #41
Smoke Jul 2018 #43
Model10RB Jul 2018 #14
MeatSandwich Jul 2018 #22
Model10RB Jul 2018 #26
Smoke Jul 2018 #34
MeatSandwich Jul 2018 #42
Smoke Jul 2018 #44
MeatSandwich Jul 2018 #47
Smoke Jul 2018 #48
sobek Jul 2018 #15
TexMexNext Jul 2018 #19
MeatSandwich Jul 2018 #24
Smoke Jul 2018 #29
MeatSandwich Jul 2018 #40
Nostrings Jul 2018 #37
762Justice Jul 2018 #25
His Daughter Jul 2018 #30
Smoke Jul 2018 #32
His Daughter Jul 2018 #35
oldenuff35 Jul 2018 #31
Smoke Jul 2018 #33
batcat Jul 2018 #38

Response to MeatSandwich (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 02:54 PM

1. How many rounds in that "Sig compact" you're going to steal from someone else's holster?

Wow you plan on shooting an awful lot of people with a stolen semi and only one mag. You must be a real dead-eye. Whatcha gon do when the mag's empty? Beat people with the stolen gun?

This is one of the more meaningless and stupid posts I've seen in quite a while.

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Response to JaimeBondoJr (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:50 PM

8. You didn't read my post either, did you?

I said I would never attempt that, but a bad guy would. And I bad guy would already have a weapon and be an active shooter. Try reading it again for clarity.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:01 PM

2. I live in a free state where concealed carry isn't a big deal. I do tend to agree that the open

 

carry guys outside of hunting season are potentially ........ lacking.

And I hardly ever ever carry anyway, even in some of my worst (read Memphis/Atlanta/SoCal type ghettos) properties, because it's really about mindset.

If you are willing to kill defensively with a pencil or large rock, the gun really is superfluous.

Ain't none of us getting out of this alive!

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Response to Shkreli (Reply #2)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:23 PM

3. BWAHAHAHA!!! I love it!

 

Properties!

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Response to Meowmenow (Reply #3)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:42 PM

6. You probably live in one of them. Thanks for the rent! {NOI of course :) }

 

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Response to Meowmenow (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 02:29 PM

36. Active Shooter Stopped by Slumlord with a Pencil

There's a news headline one doesn't often see.

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Response to Isidore (Reply #36)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 05:21 PM

39. !!!

 

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Response to MeatSandwich (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:27 PM

4. Nice appeal to authority

So tell us in your 35 years as a FEDERAL PROSECUTOR how many times have you heard of somebody open carrying having their gun stolen? Please be SPECIFIC.

I don't open carry.

On the one hand I want to say that's because I don't like the attention it draws. On the other hand though, I see people open carrying frequently and everyone around them appears to be oblivious to it.

So, while open carry isn't a choice I would make I fully support your right to make your own decision about it.

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Response to Smoke (Reply #4)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:53 PM

10. Again, someone else that didn't read what I wrote.

I was talking about an active shooter, not me. And as for my profession, several people on this board know exactly who I am, and can verify my experience. Besides, I said as a prosecutor and former criminal investigator. Please read my post again for clarity.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Reply #10)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 06:17 PM

16. I never questioned your experience. I said your argument was an appeal to authority

"I'm a federal prosecutor and criminal investigator so my option has more merit than yours."

So how many active shooter incidents have you investigated in which the shooter shot an open carrier first and then went after people that looked "military"? How many active shooter incidents have you investigated in which open carry played ANY part at all?

Of course you're welcome to hold your own opinion on open carry but why should I pay any special attention to what you think about the subject?

test

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Response to Smoke (Reply #16)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 08:00 PM

20. I have investigated several active shooter incidents over the years.

The one thing that I learned was that the subject had paid special attention to look for those that might be armed. In the cases I worked, open carry was not a factor. But over the years, I just have to wonder, as I see people open carry in public (where I live, you need a concealed permit to open carry) why are they doing it? What particular advantage do they think they have? That's why I have always conceal carried. The last thing I want an active shooter to know is that I'm armed - until it's too late for them.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Reply #20)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 02:08 AM

45. So to be clear I don't object to you expressing your opinion

I don't even disagree with your opinion.

I started out as a strong advocate for open carry and I still absolutely support the Citizen's right to make their own decision in the matter. It should be the Citizen's choice not the State's.

Having said that, I have not open carried off the clock in probably 10 years and I would probably go without a gun before I open carry now.

In my experience open carry is only a deterrent in the sense that locks keep honest people honest. If somebody really wants to attack you that gun isn't going to stop them.

Now it's my turn to make an Appeal to Authority. While open carrying, in uniform I've had one person threaten to knock me on my ass and take my gun. I've had one person DARE me to shoot him. I had two people try to rob me. (although in that particular case it was dark and they may not have realized I had a gun until it came out.) And I had one guy try to back me into a corner and snatch my gun in a Kum & Go at about 3AM one night.

So those experiences inform my opinion. I think open carry is a bad tactical idea. I personally wouldn't open carry (at all if the choice was mine) without a level 2 retention holster AT A MINIMUM and probably intermediate weaponry such as OC spray or an ASP.

I also think that as more people choose to open carry you're going to see more gun grabs and more attempted gun grabs ESPECIALLY if some of these idiot open carriers persist in walking around with unloaded weapons in these cheap ass $5 Uncle Mike's holsters with ZERO retention.

Having said all that I would not restrict anyone's right to make that decision for themselves and when I see somebody open carrying in public I ignore it and hope they do me the same courtesy.



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Response to Smoke (Reply #45)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:19 PM

46. When I was a crim investigator, I carried an ASP and a semi-auto.

It gave me at least on more step in the use of force continuum.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:27 PM

5. Trying to

take a gun away from someone is attempted murder. You should know this. Try it with the wrong person and you'd better succeed or you won't get another chance. Ever.

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Response to Countingman (Reply #5)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:48 PM

7. You didn't read my post did you?

That wasn't my point at all, and I made it quite clear that I would never attempt it. But, if you had read it, you'd know that.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Reply #7)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:52 PM

9. Whatever you say, you internet tough guy.

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Response to Countingman (Reply #9)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 03:54 PM

11. See my other post generally this index.

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Response to Countingman (Reply #5)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 04:25 PM

12. Open carry is legal in my state

I only do so during hunting season, backpacking, hiking and such outdoor activities.

He makes a valid point and I have a little experience under my belt. If I was an active shooter the person I saw open carrying would be taken down first. Eliminate all potential threats so you can accomplish your mission.

That is why I never open carry, only CCW in public. You are setting yourself up to take the first round.

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Response to Red Bull (Reply #12)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 06:25 PM

18. You are setting yourself up to take the first round.

This happens HOW often?

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Response to Smoke (Reply #18)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 08:14 PM

23. Do you want someone near them in your family to find out?

Isn't concealed carry a better option?

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Response to MeatSandwich (Reply #23)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 09:15 PM

27. So, exactly how often does the person open carrying "draw the first shot"?

"Isn't concealed carry the better option?"

I prefer it.

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Response to Countingman (Reply #5)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 06:19 PM

17. Can you cite a relevant statute that state that trying to take someone's gun is attempted murder?

We'll wait

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Response to MeatSandwich (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 04:41 PM

13. Let's replay your scenario

A bad guy walks into a Walmart in a state where there might be both open and concealed carriers (per your setup)
First, he takes out the open carriers, which is in of itself is a problem because one might be on isle 4, another on isle 54. Walmarts are big and open carriers don't congregate as far as I know.
Second, he takes out out fit people and those wearing military or police looking clothing (whatever that is). Again, the bad guy has to go around this big store, full of people who are running around in panic (because the bad guy already fired shots at open carriers) trying to pick those people.
And AFTER all that he proceeds to shoot the rest??? Assuming, of course, anyone is left in the store after all that time.

Now, do you understand how unrealistic your scenario sounds?

Not to mention that the bad guy might encounter a fat, old former Vietnam veteran with a concealed 1911 who is a lot more dangerous than a 25 year old fit unarmed man wearing a camo shirt. That veteran will punch the bad guy's time card and proceed to buy his favorite brand of multi vitamins.

But I have to agree, while open carrying, it is much wiser to use some kind of a retention holster.

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Response to Time (Reply #13)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 08:06 PM

21. Actually, it's a matter of walking around and lookng. In the Walmart today, I only noticed one

open carry. Of course, there could have been more, but in the course of my being there I covered a lot of ground. With that said, I would have focused on the one open carry I saw. As to police looking or military, they have a certain look which is not difficult to spot. Not that I would just be shooting at them, but they would certainly be targets for me. As to the rest, I wouldn't be too concerned. I think you missed the point of my post. Open carry is an invitation to be a target. A person can be much more effective if they conceal carry, then use the weapon if needed. Why advertise?

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Response to MeatSandwich (Reply #21)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 09:21 PM

28. A person can be much more effective if they conceal carry

Based on?

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Response to Smoke (Reply #28)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 06:33 PM

41. Based on what I said in the OP. They go mostly unnoticed and are not a target right off the bat.

They still have the weapon and respond as needed giving the bad guy little time to react.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Reply #41)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 10:50 PM

43. So based on an opinion in your appeal to authority.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 05:56 PM

14. I don't go to Walmart.

My opinion is that going to Walmart is a dumb tactical decision, open carry or not.

BTW, the entire situation is none of your damn business.

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Response to Model10RB (Reply #14)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 08:12 PM

22. Actually it is. I don't want my family near an open carry, other than a police officer.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Reply #22)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 08:34 PM

26. Oh well. It is legal in a majority of states.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Reply #22)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 03:49 AM

34. If an active shooter is going to open up on an open carrier first

Why do you think he wouldn't open up on a cop?

I mean seriously apparently in your state the same training is required to open carry as concealed what's the difference between them standing next to a gun you can see and then standing next to a gun you can't see?

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Response to Smoke (Reply #34)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 06:35 PM

42. They would, and have done so in the past.

As you know, a number of police officers have been the victims of active shooters. They were specifically targeted because they were armed.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Reply #42)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 01:44 AM

44. No. They only time the active shooters have gone after cops first

Have been times when they were targeting cops specifically to begin with. In almost every other instance the active shooter has started shooting in a location where nobody had guns

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Response to Smoke (Reply #44)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 08:22 PM

47. Well, that's what I was getting at. They were specifically targeting cops.

No different than targeting those open carrying in a store or restaurant. Bottom line, though. I don't think we're all that far apart on this issue. As a guy on the job, I'm sure you understand my point of view.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Reply #47)

Mon Jul 30, 2018, 09:55 PM

48. No. I am NOT "on the job" and I never claimed to be

I am contract armed security guard with VERY LIMITED police powers ON CITY PROPERTY.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 06:14 PM

15. Wow. I had no idea you were a federal prosecutor.

Hope I haven't pissed you off.

On the subject of concealed carry, it's totally legal to carry concealed here all day long. My favorite weapons are my .22 magnum with hot loads, the slim nine, and now, my oldest son bought the semiautomatic micro Uzi.

I've been experimenting with loose homeade canvas holsters and have improved by my draw time that way.

I'm like the other American National animal symbol, (the pitbull in WW1). "I'm not looking for a fight but will give you one if you insist."

I usually don't have to carry around these townies. We are in the Shire.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 06:46 PM

19. Ive only seen one open carrier in TX

Guy looked like an idiot with a $450 Glock in a $22 UNCLE MIKE’S holster. I don’t think open carry is all that big a deal. Every plain clothes officer I see uses nothing more than a thumb break for retention and no one is running up to them a stealing their pistols. I’d say your imagined situation is a tad too Walter Mitty.

Side note, your writing is a bit unclear. Sometimes you’re the prosecutor and sometimes your a bad guy and sometimes you’re an active shooter. You need clearer transitions between those persons. I get why posters are misunderstanding the scenario. This post needs a fluff and buff edit.

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Response to TexMexNext (Reply #19)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 08:16 PM

24. I agree I could have been more clear. I actually wrote it as a bit of rant after getting back.

I just don't see the need to open carry. Concealed is much preferable, and doesn't seem to draw attention to the person.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Reply #24)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 09:23 PM

29. I just don't see the need to open carry.

Last edited Sat Jul 28, 2018, 10:15 PM - Edit history (1)

Ok but do you understand that there's a bunch of antis out there who just don't see the need for you to carry period.
I personally choose not to opencarry but support the rights of those who choose to do so.

I don't think it makes other people nervous because most of the time they don't even seem aware of it. I know this doesn't count as data but every time I point out an open carrier to my wife she isn't even aware until I do.

Sure there are idiots that open carry and I fully support taking their right to do so based on their specific behavior if they do something stupid while open carrying but I don't want to see the majority punished for the actions of a few.

Does open carry make you a target? Sure it does sometimes but sometimes just being there makes you a target.

All in all unless you can show me statistically significant numbers of open carriers being robbed for their guns or causing legitimate public disturbances I'm going to come down on the side of personal freedom

There really is no such thing as compromise with an anti. If they ever succeed in banning open carry they will focus all their resources on concealed carry They will not rest until no private citizen had the right to bear arms

Listen, and understand! That Grabber is out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely.will.not .stop. until you are disarmed

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Response to Smoke (Reply #29)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 06:29 PM

40. I agree, the anti's will be anti no matter the reason.

I truly appreciate your input. I knew I'd take some heat for my opinion, but I'm a big boy - I can take it.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Reply #24)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 02:54 PM

37. As long as you're suggesting and not demanding...

I see no problem.

You're exercising your freedom doing so just like the open carrier was doing so open carrying.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 08:17 PM

25. I agree that open carry is dumb.

I also agree that trying to look like Tactical Ted does people no favors.

I like to be generally unnoticed, and carry properly concealed.

I open carry when hog hunting, cause a G20 is beefy, and hogs don't care what I look like.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Original post)

Sat Jul 28, 2018, 09:23 PM

30. Mixed feelings on some things in this thread

A cop is a bullet magnet when in uniform so effectively is not much better off that the bubba you are describing, the first to go down. Not many people understand that. It is why we do not wear uniforms after work. For some departments its a policy matter, wanting your uniform covered when going to/from work.

I would also point out that some cops I see today are not just wearing the uniform but tacticool as well. Vests with MOLLE pouches hanging off of them etc. That is somewhat a local policy matter. They don't do themselves any favors with that look. Also their layout is seriously suboptimal per my husband, retired JSOC. You don't tend to see that off duty.

I carry concealed, sometimes off body, especially during the summer. I don't advertise, and in civilian clothes see no need to do so. Been teaching hubby how to do that. For him frightfulness was a tool, but he is a civilian now. Open carry when in uniform only, uniform should rarely if ever be worn in public off the clock.

The real risk of active shooters is miniscule. I worry more about NDs, and that includes from LE. That said, poorly done open carry, even by law enforcement, is dumb.





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Response to His Daughter (Reply #30)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 12:43 AM

32. The OP is talking about civilian open carry. You're talking about practicing OPSEC.

I don't open carry off the clock period. I also never go anywhere except to and from work in uniform, not even Walmart and even going and coming I cover up.

Even in street clothes though I avoid anything with a gun related logo. I make a point of avoiding ANY type of logo on my clothing. Nothing military related, no III% stuff nothing but a Cabela's hat.

Lately I've noticed a lot of concealed carriers sporting the "operator" look. They may not be open carrying but they're dressed head to toe in 5.11 clothes and think no one knows they're carrying.

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Response to Smoke (Reply #32)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 09:36 AM

35. I think the thread mixed the two which generated some of my comments

I share your lack of gun oriented clothing and nothing on the vehicles either. I have a weakness for cargo pants/shorts, but tend to the Bass Pro brand, vice 5.11 or Propper. Both hubby and I have our share of military t-shirts/polo shirts, but we are both retired Army. Old camo/BDU/ACU wearing is reserved for home.

One thing I will comment on is the number of good concealed carry purses out there. Originally limited and poorly done, some of the newer ones are excellent. I had to relearn how to carry a purse when I got back to CONUS. I tend to smallish shoulder bags. Work well for concealed carry as well. Several of them will replace a purse if you shoot through it in a self defense situation. Now that is a warranty! Maxpedition makes some nice sling bags, but they scream GUN to me.

I open carried at the homestead in CA and do so here on the property we rent. Not all the time and it is done mostly for snakes. Scared the hell out of some California trespassers lately when we did...almost funny. AZ is constitutional carry, but they had no clue.

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Response to MeatSandwich (Original post)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 12:13 AM

31. If I'm going to open carry it will be a semi auto short rifle folding stock slung around my body.

Handguns are not made for fighting they are a save your ass weapon.

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Response to oldenuff35 (Reply #31)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 12:44 AM

33. Good to know

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Response to MeatSandwich (Original post)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 03:02 PM

38. Since I live in Florida I am basically limited to concealed carry while in public. ...

Open carry would tend to scare the hell out of the tourists which in Florida would damage the ecomony.

The only problem I see with concealed carry here is that it is hard to effectively concealed a full sized pistol in much of the year while wearing light clothing. In the winter months it is much easier.

To me that’s not a big deal. Carrying a heavy pistol can be such a pain that often it gets left behind in the safe. I prefer to pocket carry a snub nosed revolver. I can’t fill the air with lead but that might be a good thing.

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