Sciencescienceammocomparison

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 01:22 PM

Article: Why I'd Rather be Shot with an AK47 than an M4

Interesting article and not from a typical gun source. My own experience is placement matters most but this has some interesting information for those who care about such things. I never correlated bullet type to wound damage while I was there.

It is somewhat in contrast to the current trend in long range precision shooting where the paper punchers are going to 6.5 Creedmore kind of rounds and the snipers are going with larger rounds ike 338 Lapua. I inherited a 338 Lapua. Its a dragonslayer.

http://tacmedaustralia.com.au/why-id-rather-be-shot-with-an-ak47-than-an-m4/

70 replies, 7388 views

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Reply Article: Why I'd Rather be Shot with an AK47 than an M4 (Original post)
His Daughter Nov 2015 OP
Tovera Nov 2015 #1
His Daughter Nov 2015 #15
Tovera Dec 2015 #68
TexMex Dec 2015 #64
Tovera Dec 2015 #66
TexMex Dec 2015 #67
Banshee 3 Actual Dec 2015 #69
TexMex Dec 2015 #70
Guyzilla Nov 2015 #2
Smoke Nov 2015 #4
JoeHill Nov 2015 #7
His Daughter Nov 2015 #10
JoeHill Nov 2015 #21
pavulon-lives Nov 2015 #13
JoeHill Nov 2015 #20
His Daughter Nov 2015 #23
island4diver Nov 2015 #40
It Guy Nov 2015 #41
JoeHill Nov 2015 #46
DocDocGoose Nov 2015 #61
JoeHill Nov 2015 #62
DocDocGoose Nov 2015 #63
His Daughter Nov 2015 #24
Guyzilla Nov 2015 #25
His Daughter Nov 2015 #26
Guyzilla Nov 2015 #27
JoeHill Nov 2015 #28
His Daughter Nov 2015 #31
JoeHill Nov 2015 #44
Banshee 3 Actual Nov 2015 #48
LeeCPTINF Nov 2015 #52
JoeHill Nov 2015 #53
LeeCPTINF Nov 2015 #58
His Daughter Nov 2015 #36
TexMex Dec 2015 #65
island4diver Nov 2015 #39
fools_gold Nov 2015 #60
Banshee 3 Actual Nov 2015 #49
Heyu Nov 2015 #3
Guyzilla Nov 2015 #5
Heyu Nov 2015 #8
JoeHill Nov 2015 #6
His Daughter Nov 2015 #11
JoeHill Nov 2015 #16
His Daughter Nov 2015 #18
pavulon-lives Nov 2015 #14
JoeHill Nov 2015 #17
pavulon-lives Nov 2015 #19
His Daughter Nov 2015 #22
JoeHill Nov 2015 #29
His Daughter Nov 2015 #33
JoeHill Nov 2015 #30
His Daughter Nov 2015 #32
JoeHill Nov 2015 #34
His Daughter Nov 2015 #35
JoeHill Nov 2015 #42
JoeHill Nov 2015 #45
pavulon-lives Nov 2015 #38
pavulon-lives Nov 2015 #37
JoeHill Nov 2015 #43
pavulon-lives Nov 2015 #47
Banshee 3 Actual Nov 2015 #50
JoeHill Nov 2015 #54
Banshee 3 Actual Nov 2015 #55
JoeHill Nov 2015 #57
Banshee 3 Actual Nov 2015 #51
JoeHill Nov 2015 #56
Banshee 3 Actual Nov 2015 #59
orson Nov 2015 #9
His Daughter Nov 2015 #12

Response to His Daughter (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 01:26 PM

1. I have a .338 LM, too.

The ballistic performance is staggeringly good. I'm still learning how to load for it (and while most if not all the factory loads for it are good performers, they're damned expensive!), but it already outperforms my other rigs at every distance I've tried (I do long-range competition).

The downside is one you may be familiar with: it's a damned heavy rifle, particularly with appropriate optics, and it's a lot for this small woman to lug around!

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Response to Tovera (Reply #1)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 05:10 PM

15. I can shoot to 1600 yards on my property, with a safe backstop

More if I moved some things around. My current range stand is 1200 yards from a bench restit. I don't get the Lapua out often, and a fair amount of ammo came with it. However, eventually I will find what brand of commercial fodder it likes best and stay with that. Also working on cold barrel shots. If I ever have to use it, it would be in that kind of situation.

I don't have the time or inclination to hand load or compete. Just too many other things going on. My fiance also likes that rifle and he had done some hand loading in the past. Have to see what happens when he finally moves in. I may PM you for your loading data.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 4, 2015, 12:01 PM

68. Let me know when to be over. I'll bring wine.

For after the range session, of course! Guns and vino don't mix. =)

All kidding aside, while I love being a city girl, I also envy you such a spread! I have free anytime access to a safe place for long range work, but it's a fairly long drive I make weekly.

And feel free to ask for loading data when you're going to start loading. I've started to come to some conclusions, although I haven't yet beaten the groups I can get with a couple different factory loads. Getting real close, though!

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Response to Tovera (Reply #1)

Thu Dec 3, 2015, 10:54 PM

64. Watched a guy at my range

 

shooting a Savage 338 LM last month. He had 3" muzzle brake on his 19 pound rifle rig and he still used a lead-sled with 25lbs of birdshot to fire it. I asked what he was using it for: elk hunting he says He must have a mule team to carry his crew served rifle in the mountains

I had a hard time not laughing out loud.

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Response to TexMex (Reply #64)

Fri Dec 4, 2015, 01:53 AM

66. Elk hunting?!?

Good lord...

In my neck of the woods, most of the elk are in some pretty hilly country (Coast Range...). I love that cannon of mine, but I can't imagine hauling it over hill and dale all day. Moreover, most of the shots, I'm told (I don't hunt) seldom exceed 200 yards, and mostly closer to a hundred. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of .338 LM. I don't have to be polite, so I am laughing out loud.

I haven't seen one in the metal, but that Savage is a hell of a deal for someone who wants to get into .338 LM but doesn't want to have to take out a second mortgage to do it (it already costs the friggin' earth to shoot). I've shot a little Savage "Hog Hunter" carbine in .308; I believe it has the same trigger, which was pretty nice. I have a stupid amount of money in my .338 LM rifle and optics; more than I should have spent (by a lot...), but that's the nature of hobbies (complete corruption of the rational thought process).

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Response to Tovera (Reply #66)

Fri Dec 4, 2015, 10:57 AM

67. "Complete corruption of the rational", I know it well

 

I reload .308 and get 250 rounds per pound of powder. 338LM gets you what 90 rounds/pound so? Yikes that's expensive to shoot! I shoot hi-power at a range with a 1000yd line. If I ever get the time to shoot f-class I'll buy a Savage 6.5 Creedmoore for sure.

Savage has the best accuracy for the buck out there today. And you can re-barrel them with a wrench, vice and chamber gauge to boot.

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Response to TexMex (Reply #64)

Fri Dec 4, 2015, 05:13 PM

69. They're 15-3/4 lbs for the 110BA, an M1 Garand is 11lbs fully loaded

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Response to Banshee 3 Actual (Reply #69)

Fri Dec 4, 2015, 05:57 PM

70. Sounds about right

 

Until you add his 5x20x50 Trijicon, sunshade, bipod and loaded magazine. I hope for his sake he never tries elk hunting.

I hunt elk with a 270 Weatherby mag. At 8 lbs with scope & sling it's pretty light. The best elk are 3 miles past the last hunter and you get to carryout what you kill.

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Response to His Daughter (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 01:27 PM

2. I always heard that our bullets were intended to tumble. and so tear a huge hole.

 

And don't coterize on the way thru.

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Response to Guyzilla (Reply #2)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 01:45 PM

4. Urban Legend

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Response to Guyzilla (Reply #2)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 02:24 PM

7. Absolutely correct.

 

The bullets have an ultra-thin copper coating so as to be in compliance with the Hague Convention, but at the high speed the bullet travels, the copper melts off on contact with skin and turns into molten pellets. Not only that, but when the bullet hits bone, it pulverizes it into shrapnel that tears through anything around it.

But wait, there's more. A high-speed bullet like the 5.56 creates a massive shock wave in which soft tissue destroys other soft tissue around it.

These are really nasty rounds with only one good use, killing humans at combat ranges. They have no other practical use, and in fact, in most states the round is TOO SMALL to use for deer.

We outlaw this round to kill deer with. Let that sink in for a minute. What's cruel when used on a deer is perfectly fine when used on a human.

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #7)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 03:25 PM

10. Where did you get that fake info

You need to get your money back

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #10)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 05:50 PM

21. Some of it is from the article you posted.

 

Cf., bone shatters and turns to shrapnel.

See the exit wound of the woman shot with the 5.56 round.

You are familiar with the Hague Convention, right?

Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Use of Bullets which can Easily Expand or Change their Form inside the Human Body such as Bullets with a Hard Covering which does not Completely Cover the Core, or containing Indentations

This declaration states that, in any war between signatory powers, the parties will abstain from using "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body." This directly banned "soft-nosed" bullets (which had a partial metal jacket and an exposed tip) and "cross-tipped" bullets (which had a cross-shaped incision in their tip to aid in expansion, nicknamed "Dum Dums" from the Dum Dum Arsenal in India). It was ratified by all major powers, except the United States.

From Wiki . . .

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #7)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 04:37 PM

13. That is some stupid shit

556/223 works fine on deer with the correct bullet. Xm193 / or green tip kills them but there are better bullets for shooting men and critters.

Since libby appears to have failed physics and common sense class lets start here.

A green tip 556 round is constructed to be effective and comply with old laws. Many new rounds used by the military are open tip pretty much like a deer specific round.

Velocity and mass and bullet construction are the only variables. Delivering downrange energy with minimum recoil is why the 556 is in use. All the bullshit about melted copper is laughable.

Any bullet can be pushed to a velocity where it fragments on contact, 308 or 556. This isnt special, its actually a problem as the round may not penetrate and retain mass after breaking apart.

Bottom line being shot with a rifle sucks, m1 garand like my grandfather used to shoot japanese or the m4 are going to be life altering.

Ill be happy to post up terminal ballistics images in human and deer from various rounds if you like.

Remember folks democrats trying to pass gun laws really are this ignorant.

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #13)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 05:47 PM

20. Some of this information comes from William Donahue and his examination

 

of JFK's X rays.

"The way the bullet produced as many as 40 tiny fragments inside Kennedy’s brain, and the reported 6mm diameter of the entry wound in the back of the skull, were inconsistent with 6.5 mm Carcano bullets, Donahue contended."

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Shooting_holes_in_theory_that_a_Secret_Service_agent_killed_President_Kennedy.html

Colorado, Minn, Kansas, Washington, W. Virginia and many others require a larger caliber to hunt deer than the "mouse round" of the .223.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/whitetail-deer-hunting/227252-legal-rifle-calibers-state.html

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #20)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 06:31 PM

23. Relevance? JFK was not shot with 5.56mm, he was killed with a 6.5mm Carcano

And a skull penetrating shot ALWAYS produces bone fragments and shards. Get head shot with something serious, and all that will be left is fragments, shards of bone, and red mist.

Deer is not the only game out there, other states allow the .223. If you are going to claim its purpose is limited to the killing of humans, you need to to better.


All I see from you is bias and cherry picking citations at this point.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #23)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 11:18 PM

40. there is the claim that one shot

was really an ND from a new fangled AR. How it was that much different from a Thompson or Williams carbine escapes me.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Shooting_holes_in_theory_that_a_Secret_Service_agent_killed_President_Kennedy.html

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 12:19 AM

41. Ummm...deer don't shoot back and have never been known to be as cunning or dangerous as man.

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Response to It Guy (Reply #41)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 01:02 AM

46. Thanks for sharing.

 

Odd how many states think it's cruel and non-sporting to shoot them with a "mouse round" though, isn't it.

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #7)

Tue Nov 24, 2015, 07:40 PM

61. Man, if your skin can take copper off of a bullet,

after it has squeezed through two feet of hardened steel that is likely two-thousandths of an inch smaller than the bullet at over 3000 feet/sec, you should probably find yourself a good moisturizer!

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Response to DocDocGoose (Reply #61)

Tue Nov 24, 2015, 09:19 PM

62. I just repeat what I read. I can't say from personal experience.

 

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #62)

Tue Nov 24, 2015, 10:11 PM

63. Isn't that exactly what you condemn conservatives for doing? N/T

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Response to Guyzilla (Reply #2)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 06:48 PM

24. Tumbling bullets are very inaccurate

and no bullet cauterizes the wound it makes. There were a lot of wild stories about the 5.56 round early on, surprised how many of them remain out there. A thoracic or abdominal hit from any centerfire rifle is going to be serious.

The 5.56 was a departure from the NATO std .308. Its weighs much less so individuals can carry more rounds. It allowed individual to have full auto capabilities etc.

Yes it travels at a higher speed, and I don't care what the Army says, it has a shorter maximum effective range (range at which the average solider is expected to hit a target).

Any bullet can tumble, fragment, or mushroom onces it hits something.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #24)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 06:51 PM

25. Actually, they are shaped like a football.

 

When they hit, they tumble. It is coming back to me. So, often, the bullet travels far from entry. Sometimes they have to search the whole body for the bullet. No exit wound, and funky trajectory.

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Response to Guyzilla (Reply #25)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:02 PM

26. More of the old wives tales. BTW, its called a boat tail bullet

More accurate. Most hunting bullets are also boat tail. Its not symmetric either. It tapers back but not to a point. It looks like the top view of a small boat.

Bullets go where physics tells them to. It depends on what its vector was upon entry relative to the body and what it hits.

A common fallacy is that doctors look for and try to remove bullets. We don't. We fix the damage they make. Often the damage required to remove bullets or shrapnel is more injurious than leaving them in. Sometime the body will work the bullet out of the tissue over time. Check out the videos on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bullet+removal . Not safe for eating for most people.



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Response to His Daughter (Reply #26)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:05 PM

27. That shows you why I havent pushed gun control. I dont know shit.

 

Except how to shoot well from the hip, and FAST.

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Response to Guyzilla (Reply #27)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:16 PM

28. I don't know any doctors who leave the bullets in.

 

You have to be very careful about what this medical professional tells you.

She may be good at drawing blood and emptying bed pans, but anything else is suspect in the extreme.

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #28)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:36 PM

31. Then you don't know any trauma docs

But if it will help you, watch the show about Boston Emergency series, the trauma surgeon there said just about the same thing in a recent episode. They found the bullet in the patients bowels, but he clearly said that docs don't go looking for them.

Its relative risk. Do I injure the patient more to get it out or is it better and safer to leave the shards or round in place. Often it is left, particularly if its someplace benign. Sometimes for later removal, sometimes forever. Just depends on the circumstances. Ask a wounded vet if he still has shrapnel inside. More common that you think.


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Response to His Daughter (Reply #31)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 12:42 AM

44. Reagan . . .

 

A Bullet is Removed From Reagan's Lung in Emergency Surgery

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0330.html

Again, if only you had been there to tell the surgeon how to do his job.

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #44)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 01:54 AM

48. And I can tell you of 2 men from my battalion still with shrapnel inside them

One had a chunk embedded in his left humerus. Rather then remove it, the CSH surgeons ground it's sharp edges down and left it in situ and he stayed in country. The bone eventually grows over the shrapnel.

Another had a bullet fragment left in his leg. (it was beleived to be a 7.62X25 PPsh round).

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #28)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:07 AM

52. The left the bullet in me for months

Nuzzled right up against my spine. Waited till the body naturally pushed it out. Quick incision in the back and it popped right out. Wore it on my dog tags for years.

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Response to LeeCPTINF (Reply #52)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:16 PM

53. No worries about lead poisoning eh?

 

Well, that explains a few things.

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #53)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 03:09 PM

58. No fragmentation

Copper jacketed. No deformation when it hit my spine either. Not sure if I should be impressed by that.

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Response to Guyzilla (Reply #27)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 08:17 PM

36. Some of those memes were gospel in the pro gun community as well

They seem to have gotten over them in time. Eventually, at least in most places, the scientific method wins out.

The wounds from a 223 are much worse than a .22LR due to bullet shape and energy levels. No surprise. They also do more damage than a handgun in many cases. No surprise there either. The damage potential of most centerfire rifles is greater than most pistols. Rifles also reach out farther, are more accurate, and keep more of their energy at longer ranges. Nothing new there if you understand the physics.

A 223 with go right through soft body armor. Then again so will any hunting rifle, infact the vast majority of centerfire rifles will. Again, its the physics. Hard armor can stop just about anything, though you may be seriously thrashed by it since the energy must go somewhere (classic example of Sir Issac must be paid).

The technology behind some of this is interesting and it continues to evolve. In older designs, it required a gunsmith to fit new or replacement parts. The AR-15 ushered in an era where new parts just snapped in and out without fitting. Its common now, but at the time it was a big freaking deal. Fit and clearance are a big deal in most machinery. Today if the part is built to spec, its good to go in newer gun designs without fitting.

Ethics are what they are. US takes a different and IMNSHO better view than the UK and Canada. In a briefing by US Diplomatic Security when I was a minor, we were told that the UK outlaws self defense. Technically not true, but enough to keep up from kicking Yob ass. Firearms are part of our culture, despite the denials of some. Even if you are anti gun (a view I respect in most cases), you have an obligation to know enough about them to render them safe, even empty. There are a lot of things I know how to do that I don't care for, but its part of being a competent adult.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #26)

Thu Dec 3, 2015, 11:12 PM

65. Cool link! I ate my spagetti which watching ;)

 

I like to inspect bullets in the big game I take. When I find them, they're usually lodged just under the skin (like your 1st clip) on the outbound side. I figure it acts something like a catcher's mitt, stretching and retaining the bullet. Ideally bullets expand then pass completely through. This provides lots of blood to trail, and a quicker death for the animal. An ideal shot leaves little to none of the heart discernible.

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Response to Guyzilla (Reply #2)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 11:11 PM

39. the tumbling was because of the rifling twist in the first M16s

basically, it spun out of the barrel too fast and made it unstable. While it was a problem with that barrel, it would be a problem with, say, a bolt action gun of the same caliber without the problem. The military had either Armalite or Colt replace the barrels and fixed the problem.

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Response to island4diver (Reply #39)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 09:30 PM

60. Close, but backward

The original barrels had too slow a twist, and the bullet lost stability within 100 meters. They increased the twist later for the M193 55 gr round, and again for the M855/SS109 62gr (green tip) round. The heavier bullets needed more (faster) twist to retain stability.

Barrel
Early model M16 barrels had a rifling twist of 4 grooves, right hand twist, 1 turn in 14 inches (1:355.6 mm) bore - as it was the same rifling used by the .222 Remington sporting round. This was shown to make the light .223 Remington bullet yaw in flight at long ranges and it was soon replaced. Later models had an improved rifling with 6 grooves, right hand twist, 1 turn in 12 inches (1:304.8 mm) for increased accuracy and was optimized for use with the standard U.S. M193 cartridge. Current models are optimized for the heavier NATO SS109 bullet and have 6 grooves, right hand twist, 1 turn in 7 in (1:177.8 mm). Weapons designed to accept both the M193 or SS109 rounds (like civilian market clones) have a 6-groove, right hand twist, 1 turn in 9 inches (1:228.6 mm) bore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle

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Response to Guyzilla (Reply #2)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:18 AM

49. A tracer can Cauterize as it's back half of the bullet core is magnesium mix and burns

It's not something regular, but has been known to happen.

The Tumbling bullet, designed to wound is a myth. The original 5.56mm bullets were 55 grain and shot from a rifle with a 1 turn in 12 inch rifling (Twist). When the bullet hits it doesn't keyhole but yaws, typically 180 degrees, breaks into 2 pieces and sheds about 1/3 of its weight as fragments. A Gunshot wound leaves a temporary cavity and a permanent cavity.

It's easier to show you these, than to explain it in technical terms and jargon
5.56mm 55 grn FMJ lead core -used in the M16/M16A1/XM177 series used in Vietnam-1990


5.56mm 62 grn FMJ lead/ steel core-used in the M16A2/A4 & M4, FAMAS, L85A2, M249 SAW/FN Minimi



7.62NATO FMJ lead core- used in the M14, FN FAL/SLR, M240/FN Mag/GPMG




7.63X 39 Combloc FMJ lead core-used in the SKS, AK47/AKM/RPK & RPD

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Response to His Daughter (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 01:34 PM

3. I would rather not be shot.

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Response to Heyu (Reply #3)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 01:50 PM

5. What kind of gun enthusiast are you?

 

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Response to Guyzilla (Reply #5)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 02:47 PM

8. None.

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Response to His Daughter (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 02:17 PM

6. The CIA loved the ghoulish wounds the M-16 was causing in VietCong victims in the early 60's.

 

Last edited Sun Nov 22, 2015, 12:50 AM - Edit history (1)

The Hague Convention sought to outlaw fragmenting bullets for war and thus mandated FMJ rounds, but the tiny, tumbling 5.56 (actually smaller in caliber than a .22) did the damage of a dum-dum without being technically illegal.

I like guns and have a substantial collection, but I hate black rifles. That "intermediate" round is ideal for inflicting the worst possible wounds in humans--it's maximized for human suffering.

We lived until the 1950's without these horrible plastic killing machines--ugly, cheaply made out of stamped parts, inelegant, and just plain nasty--and we can easily live without them now.

On edit--it turns out that the Hague Convention didn't exactly mandate FMJ rounds, just rounds that were intended to break up or deform to increase lethality. But that has been how most countries have interpreted the Hague Convention rules.

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #6)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 03:27 PM

11. Again, total tripe

Last edited Sat Nov 21, 2015, 04:53 PM - Edit history (1)

And your bias against black things is noted. Do you feel the same about the Mini-14?

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #11)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 05:34 PM

16. Thanks for your content-free post. nt

 

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #16)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 05:46 PM

18. It has considerable content. It concisely says your post and the prior one were nonsense

You might want to try and answer the questions too...

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #6)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 04:42 PM

14. Go read chivers book on the subject

Then post. You are posting complete bullshit.

We are killing people right now with the sost round. Great barrier blind round, ive used the same to kill bambi. No suffering just a swift death. You know what rifles are supposed to do.

556 is 224 , i assume you do something with your life that requires specific knowledge? Play an instrument something. What you are posting is childishly incorrect

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #14)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 05:35 PM

17. What is incorrect? Specifically?

 

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #17)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 05:47 PM

19. Melting copper

The process in which armalite entered procurment. Basically everything you posted was junk.

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #17)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 06:24 PM

22. Most of it

The 223 does not tumble in flight. It would be inaccurate if it did. Any bullet can tumble or deflect once it hits a target. Most of the 223 holes I have repaired were straight through unless bone was hit internally.

The 223 was adopted for logistical reasons, not for damage reasons.

Please specify what is the breakdown of states by name which do not allow the .223 for hunting. Some may not accept it for large animals, but it fine for other game or varmints.

I suggest you put a micrometer on 22LR vs .5.56. You will find that the .223 is slightly larger, not smaller. Feel free to check with Wiki, or if you prefer SAMMI

I won't comment on the Luddite thinking as to what is a proper firearm, but consider the following. The Stoner design was a major breakthrough for firearms in that it was no longer required to have a trained gunsmith to change parts. That is one of the hallmarks of modern firearms vice those whose roots are in WWII or in the case of bolt actions the 1880s.

To use a phrase coming back into vogue on campus, Black is Beautiful. In the case of guns, its also technically superior.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #22)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:18 PM

29. Of course it doesn't tumble in flight.

 

This is what Wiki says:

"The large wounds observed by soldiers in Vietnam were actually caused by bullet fragmentation, which was created by a combination of the bullet's velocity and construction. These wounds were so devastating, that the photographs remained classified into the 1980s."

This is exactly what your own article says and is the main reason why the blogger doesn't want to get shot by an AR-15/M-16/M4.

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #29)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:51 PM

33. I know what it said. That is one of the reasons I posted it.

Not a gun oriented source, and not IMO all that accurate. I posted it for discussion.

I stated it was at variance with the current thinking in long range shooting, and that in my experience, which exceeds the authors, is that placement is prime determinant and I said so.

This is a discussion board with any number of people with interested in firearms. You don't seem real up on those things though claim relevant experience with "real rifles". How about your medical experience? You seem confident to insult mine.

I know that the 19th was a real downer for you...Jonnny Barelycorn help you through it?

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #22)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:31 PM

30. What's sad is that even when PROVEN wrong, you have not the simple decency to admit it.

 

You write: I suggest you put a micrometer on 22LR vs .5.56. You will find that the .223 is slightly larger, not smaller.

.22 LR
Parent case .22 Long
Case type Rimmed, straight
Bullet diameter 0.223 in (5.7 mm) - 0.2255 in (5.73 mm)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Long_Rifle

5.56 mm
Parent case .223 Remington
Case type Rimless, bottleneck
Bullet diameter 5.70 mm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO

Apparently, 5.7 mm is bigger than 5.7-5.73 mm in Con World.



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Response to JoeHill (Reply #30)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 07:49 PM

32. Your forgot the mass

The M855 is 50% more mass that the typical 22LR.

Also while they allow the .03mm variance, they are normally on the small side. I just check with a Micrometer. All the 22LR I checked (5 brands) averaged to 5.65 and none were 5.7



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Response to His Daughter (Reply #32)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 08:02 PM

34. HAH! Damn, you're predictable.

 

Rather than admit you're wrong, you

1. pretend that you actually measured a bullet with a micrometer

and

2. bring in an irrelevant point about mass. Of course the 5.56 round is bigger in weight than a .22. That's why I specifically discussed caliber. A .45 caliber pistol round is bigger in caliber than a .30 x '06, but the rifle round is far more massive.

You were wrong, but you can't admit it.

It's really kind of sad.

Oh, and you should write a letter to SAAMI and tell them that they are wrong too:

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rimfire/22%20Long%20Rifle%20-%20Sporting.pdf

http://www.rangingthoughts.org/gBlog/image.axd?picture=2011%2F9%2F.223+Rem-+5.56+NATO+01small.jpg

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #34)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 08:16 PM

35. Actually the bullet for a 45ACP is normally 230 grains, a 30-06 runs 150 to 180

I thought you knew about such things. The kinetic energy is where the rifle wins.

I happen to have close to 10K rounds left of 22LR from Dad and I as a STEM kind of person went out and check 5 different brands. They were all small. Maybe others can measure theirs.

What about the rest of your nonsense?

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #35)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 12:30 AM

42. Thanks for the laughs. All alone on a Saturday night?

 

Again?

And be sure to correct SAAMI. They've been wrong all this time.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #35)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 12:47 AM

45. You are correct about the .45 bullet being heavier than the .30-06 round though.

 

I had just assumed that the rifle round would be heavier, but I was wrong.

See how it works? When you post something that is wrong, and someone points that out to you, you can say, "I was wrong."

It doesn't break the internet or anything.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #32)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 09:00 PM

38. Its just googling

It has no working knowledge of any of this.

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #30)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 08:58 PM

37. Like i said, horse shit

What do you do for a living? Does it involve anything based in reality.

http://thearmsguide.com/645/is-there-a-difference-between-223-and-5-56/

Like i said 224

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Response to pavulon-lives (Reply #37)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 12:37 AM

43. I know something about guns.

 

enough to know that I don't like black rifles.

I think they're ugly and unnecessary. I'm not saying we should ban them. I'm not saying you're a douche because you like them.

I personally just don't like them.

Some people don't like chocolate ice cream. What are you going to do, sue them?

Here, this is my idea of a firearm worth having:


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Response to JoeHill (Reply #43)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 01:15 AM

47. you should go put *** next to your posts

so everyone knows they are devoid of fact. A rifle is a tool, SMLE 100 year old antique or freshly made FN M4. Both capable and both no more dangerous than the person holding them.

The society devoid of value for life and where the insane rome free are the issue. nothing more. fixing that is complex and required admitting political failures. Banning a magazine holding 11 rounds but making 10 "ok", well that democrat logic. hard for me to follow.

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:51 AM

50. A Dum Dum is a expanding bullet like used in deer hunting today

It's exposed lead tip expands as it hits muscle and bone to cause massive shock to drop an animal almost immediately. In WW2 Exploding bullets were used by Germany, Japan, Italy, Soviet Union as technically for aircraft use (Except for the Soviets who issued them to Snipers).

Frankly how a dum dum is worse than a bayonet, flamethrower, JDAM, mortar bomb, or your head cleaved in with an E-tool is beyond me, none are nice ways to go.

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Response to Banshee 3 Actual (Reply #50)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:29 PM

54. And it was called a dum dum because of the factory in India

 

where this kind of bullet was made.

Thanks for that public service announcement.

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #54)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:31 PM

55. thanks for being your usual uncivil self

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Response to Banshee 3 Actual (Reply #55)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:47 PM

57. I learned from the masters . . . although old MountainDew hasn't

 

been around lately, has he.

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:54 AM

51. Oh by the way the USSF ran the M16 Trials in RVN not the CIA

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Response to Banshee 3 Actual (Reply #51)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 02:46 PM

56. I have a source for this somewhere, but danged if I can find it now.

 

I'll keep looking.

It described how the first rifles issued used had no chrome barrels or chambers and firing sub-standard Olin powder that fouled the action, so that dead soldiers were found after using their rifles as clubs.

I remember it vividly, just can't find it right now. I think it was from a book Amazon was selling.

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Response to JoeHill (Reply #56)

Sun Nov 22, 2015, 08:44 PM

59. ARPA (Later DARPA) ran the trials for McNamara in south vietnam circa 1961

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Response to His Daughter (Original post)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 03:06 PM

9. I truely hope you you are never shot

with anything. Shalom.

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Response to orson (Reply #9)

Sat Nov 21, 2015, 03:33 PM

12. Me too.

Last edited Sat Nov 21, 2015, 05:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Been shot at while in theater and I have lost track of how many shooting injuries I have repaired.

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