Sciencesciencetoyotahydrogenfuelcellgreenenergyselfsufficienth2

Sat Sep 9, 2017, 06:25 AM

A Ride Around the Track in Toyota's Electric Hydrogen Fuel Cell Powered Semi Truck



Moving 80,000 pounds is no easy task. It is normally reserved for semi trucks equipped with large diesel engines producing thousands of pound-feet of torque. Yet, the automaker known for the Prius is taking on the job with a unique fuel solution–hydrogen. We traveled to the hot, dry desert surrounding Toyota’s proving grounds to see how this water-based fuel system works in a Class 8 semi.

Toyota’s “Project Portal” is a zero-emission Hydrogen fuel cell truck capable of hauling the massive 80,000-lb load up to 200 miles. It is a “proof of concept” vehicle that was built in just 8 months–a ridiculously fast timeframe for the conservative company.

How Does it Work?

With its hood open, it is easy to see why development was so quick. Toyota quite literally took two of the powertrains for its Mirai hydrogen fuel-cell car and swapped them into a Kenworth T680.

Engineers started by removing both the massive diesel engine and the 18-speed transmission. Then, a rather small electric drivetrain, barely filling the engine bay, was put in place along with a drive-by-wire transmission and two axle-mounted motors that generate 1,325 lb-ft of torque and the electrical equivalent of 675 hp. This is nearly the same power output of the 10.8-liter diesel normally used in the Kenworth.



Inside the sleeper cab, Toyota mounted two hydrogen fuel cell tanks side by side.

“These are semi-custom tanks bought from a supplier,” says Georgio Zoia, Toyota Senior Project Manager. “It is a translation of the tanks for CNG. Each is almost double the size of a Mirai tank.”

On the driver’s side sits an inlet that resembles a natural gas connection through which the tanks are refilled. Zoia says refueling takes about 30 minutes, similar to the time needed to refill a 250-gallon tank on a diesel truck, and can be improved with “chiller” to keep the Hydrogen cooler. As Boyle’s law tells us, the cooler the tank, the faster it can be filled...snip more: http://www.automobilemag.com/news/a-ride-around-the-track-in-toyotas-hydrogen-fuel-cell-powered-semi-truck/

Toyota hydrogen fuel cell truck vs. Diesel engine truck acceleration



When all the trucks at the port of Long Beach only have 1-200 miles to drive to deliver their cargo, and they all return to the same place every night, how many hydrogen stations are needed?

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Reply A Ride Around the Track in Toyota's Electric Hydrogen Fuel Cell Powered Semi Truck (Original post)
Aquila Sep 2017 OP
MumblyPeg Sep 2017 #1
His Daughter Sep 2017 #2
MumblyPeg Sep 2017 #4
Aquila Sep 2017 #5
MumblyPeg Sep 2017 #7
Aquila Sep 2017 #8
MumblyPeg Sep 2017 #9
quad489 Sep 2017 #3
Aquila Sep 2017 #6
quad489 Sep 2017 #10
oflguy Sep 2017 #11

Response to Aquila (Original post)

Sat Sep 9, 2017, 09:21 AM

1. WHY do we

keep bothering with this foolishness?
How many in the public actually understand how the fundamental rules of energy work?
I agree with one thing: cheap energy sources are of the highest priority for civilization as a whole. Energy is everything from the perspective of developed societies.
But in these cases, we are building machinery to utilize sources that don't exist, not CAN they exist. They aren't practical. Making energy MORE expensive isn't the freeking goal people.
How many people understand the BTU required to convert and create this magic hydrogen? do they realize you can generate 5X as much energy with a gallon of gas that ultimately costs 1/10 as much money? and yes, 99% of the argument is MONEY. We may not like that fact, but if we are to be realistic, we MUST accept it.
Sure, hydrogen can be a great fuel option. But until we spend the money on actually figuring out how to generate it with methods MORE efficient than conventional fuels, we are wasting money on fantasies.
EVERY conversion of energy from one storage method to another costs you in efficiency. And as of now, that rule has NEVER been broken.

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Response to MumblyPeg (Reply #1)

Sat Sep 9, 2017, 11:16 AM

2. This is a special tool for a special job

The Port of Los Angeles is a major source of air pollution since they have a massive amount of truck idiling while there picking up goods to move throughout the LA area. This truck with its limited range, is designed to replace them and others in similar situations. It is not set up to do over the road trucking. It is marked superior in many ways to those, such as Musk, pushing battery only power sources. Fuel cells, at least for now, appear to be the superior solution.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #2)

Sat Sep 9, 2017, 12:09 PM

4. but this is not

a "single plane" solution.
Coal or natural gas have to be burned in order to produce hydrogen, and efficiency is actually LOST in the process.
It's like paying off a credit card with a different credit card. Moving the problem around doesn't solve it, and only makes matters worse due to the natural inefficiencies involved in the processing and storing.

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Response to MumblyPeg (Reply #4)

Sat Sep 9, 2017, 06:34 PM

5. You're stuck in the past

MumblyPeg: "Coal or natural gas have to be burned in order to produce hydrogen, and efficiency is actually LOST in the process."

That's the old way.

We are entering a new era of low cost renewable energy. Consider:

By law, 33% of the hydrogen at California's 30 (last year there were ~12) Hydrogen stations must be produced from renewable energy.

LA Times 6/22/2017: California invested heavily in solar power. Now there's so much that other states are sometimes paid to take it

On 14 days during March, Arizona utilities got a gift from California: free solar power.

Well, actually better than free. California produced so much solar power on those days that it paid Arizona to take excess electricity its residents weren’t using to avoid overloading its own power lines... http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-electricity-solar/

New Low Solar Price Record Set In Chile — 2.91¢ Per kWh!

Meanwhile, Solarpack set a new record-low solar bid at 2.91¢/kWh ($29.1/MWh). That beats the 2.99¢/kWh bid a Masdar Consortium provided for an 800 MW solar power project in Dubai earlier this year... https://cleantechnica.com/2016/08/18/new-low-solar-price-record-set-chile-2-91¢-per-kwh/

0.03 cents per kWh = $1.50 Kg hydrogen (50 kWh/Kg)

Bjørn Simonsen, NEL Hydrogen: The entire efficiency question loses importance with the energy regime we’re moving into. We’re coming from a mentality where we are used to thinking about energy as a limited resource. If you have a barrel of oil, it’s extremely important to use it efficiently. However, you can use it across several days or years. Whatever you don’t use one day, you still have it for the next day. Whereas when we look at renewables, you have to use them when they’re there. We have to look at energy with new eyes. What matters is what does it cost? It’s not necessarily all about the total efficiency. Prices are low enough to make hydrogen and distribute it to fueling stations at costs that are comparable to what we’re used to today with gasoline and diesel.

If you charge your car from your rooftop solar at home, it’s obviously more efficient than converting it to hydrogen first, but you won’t see people driving their electric vehicles to a solar farm far from their homes to charge whenever it’s really nice and sunny outside. That is why the two technologies will live side by side and complement each other...FULL ARTICLE: https://www.pv-magazine.com/2017/08/30/future-pv-the-feasibility-of-solar-powered-hydrogen-production/





Cheap, clean, green, domestically produced hydrogen and fuel cells are going to change the world. And it's going to happen within the next decade. Watch.

China begins mass production of fuel cells: https://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/sinohytec-opens-china%E2%80%99s-first-automated-hydrogen-fuel-cell-engine-factory

Why the Automotive Future Will Be Dominated by Fuel Cells Range, adaptability, and refueling time will put hydrogen fuel cells ahead of the competition http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/fuel-cells/why-the-automotive-future-will-be-dominated-by-fuel-cells

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Response to Aquila (Reply #5)

Sat Sep 9, 2017, 07:17 PM

7. "We are entering a new era of low cost renewable energy"

The rules haven't changed. they will always be the same.
If you want to create hydrogen for an energy storage vehicle, you need electricity to do it.
You consume more energy creating the hydrogen that yet get in actual energy stored in the hydrogen. This is efficiency loss.
Period.
New magic words won't change that. No amount of wanting will change it.
The only hope is the ability to create the energy cheaper and from nuclear or solar. solar offers little promise, it creates far more problems than it solves.
can we make more efficient solar converters? No idea. But right now, we aren't even CLOSE. It's a long run loser.

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Response to MumblyPeg (Reply #7)

Sat Sep 9, 2017, 07:33 PM

8. Sounds like you missed every single point.

Congratulations.

Solar Power International (the biggest Solar show in the world in case you haven't heard of it) kicks off tomorrow in Las Vegas and for the first time there will be a Hydrogen/Fuel Cell expo, the same H/FC expo that has been part of the world famous Hannover Fair. (It's not a rinky-dink show, Obomba gave an opening speech in 2016)



The organizers of the Group Exhibit Hydrogen + Fuel Cells + Batteries at HANNOVER MESSE announce their expansion to North America. After 23 years of experience with Europe’s largest trade fair for hydrogen, fuel cells and batteries, it is now the time to move to the USA.

The Solar Power International 2017 is the perfect platform for the first Hydrogen + Fuel Cells NORTH AMERICA. Hydrogen + Fuel Cell exhibitors profit from several synergy effects between the solar industry and more than 115 exhibitors at Energy Storage International. http://www.solarpowerinternational.com/exhibit/hydrogen-fuel-cells-north-america/

Take a look at a few of these videos (who am I kidding, you won't, but others might)

https://www.youtube.com/user/H2FCHannover/videos

It's a whole new world when it comes to Hydrogen and Fuel Cells, you can ignore it or not, won't stop the H2 Train. This is why the US is off the radar on this new tech. The worldwide leaders are Japan, Korea, Europe and now China in a few months. The US could have led this field but now it's too late.

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Response to Aquila (Reply #8)

Sat Sep 9, 2017, 09:23 PM

9. *I* missed it?

There's only one point to be made and it has nothing to do with HFC efficiency

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Response to Aquila (Original post)

Sat Sep 9, 2017, 11:46 AM

3. Sounds great, as long as the Hydrogen creation & fuel cell filling operations are zero emissions too

otherwise you're just polluting somewhere else...like Californians getting their electricity generated by coal plants in NM & NV.

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Response to quad489 (Reply #3)

Sat Sep 9, 2017, 06:37 PM

6. Have you seen the solar plants in California's central valley lately?

LA Times 6/22/2017: California invested heavily in solar power. Now there's so much that other states are sometimes paid to take it

On 14 days during March, Arizona utilities got a gift from California: free solar power.

Well, actually better than free. California produced so much solar power on those days that it paid Arizona to take excess electricity its residents weren’t using to avoid overloading its own power lines... http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-electricity-solar/

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Response to Aquila (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 10, 2017, 07:19 AM

10. "On 14 days during March"...uh, the Earth year is 365+ days long. Nice avoidance that coal power...

...plants still provides "green" southern California with about half of its electricity.

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Response to Aquila (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 10, 2017, 11:17 AM

11. Anytime you have to pay somebody to take what you have produced

That is NOT a success story

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