Sciencesciencehydrogenh2cleangreenpowerenergyrenewablestoragefuelrevolution

Fri Nov 23, 2018, 09:09 PM

The green hydrogen revolution has started, and it won't be stopped



WEF | Raphael Schoentgen | 23 NOV 2018

Hydrogen gas was first produced artificially back in the 16th century, while the first fuel cells and electrolysers were made in the 19th century. Until recently, however, the price of electrolysers – which produce hydrogen by splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen with electricity – and fuel cells – which recombine them to produce electricity and heat – were too expensive.

This has all changed. The price of electrolysers went from between €2 and €4 million per MW a couple of years ago, to around half a million now. This means the main driver for the cost of hydrogen produced by electricity is now electricity itself, which represents three quarters of the cost of production.

As green electricity gets cheaper every day, low cost green hydrogen is coming. In parallel, as with solar and wind, the cost of hydrogen production is falling exponentially, as system sizes and production volumes grow, while performance improves...snip

...This has all changed. The price of electrolysers went from between €2 and €4 million per MW a couple of years ago, to around half a million now. This means the main driver for the cost of hydrogen produced by electricity is now electricity itself, which represents three quarters of the cost of production...more: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/11/the-green-hydrogen-revolution-has-started-and-won-t-be-stopped/

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Response to Aquila (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2018, 09:11 PM

1. Until its cheaper and as plentiful as fossil fuels this will be nothing more than

people who will virtue signal, don't get me wrong if they can make a car thats as cheap to run as cars today I'm all for it but until then no thanks

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Response to Solesurvivor (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 23, 2018, 09:46 PM

2. Hydrogen cars to cost the same as hybrids by 2025, say Toyota

Toyota is predicting it will be able to sell hydrogen-powered cars for the same price as an equivalent hybrid by 2025.

Today, a mid-end Toyota Prius hybrid costs around £22,000. That compares to a hydrogen-powered Mirai, which is sold at around £65,000, but which loses money once development costs are accounted for. However, the Mirai is a larger car than the Prius.

However, at the Tokyo motor show officials revealed that they expect the next generation of hydrogen fuel technology to be substantially cheaper to produce, as well as more efficient. The anticipated exponential growth in hydrogen-powered sales -albeit still at relatively small volumes - is also expected to help lower costs as scales of production ramp up.

“In the early 2020s we will launch the next generation hydrogen fuel stack technology, and that will provide a substantial move forward,” said Naomichi Hata, general manager of new business planning for Toyota. “Today production of the Mirai is limited to 3000 cars a year, but by 2025 we expect that figure to be ten times higher... https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/hydrogen-cars-cost-same-hybrids-2025-say-toyota



Honda and GM team up to mass produce fuel cells
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/general-motors/2017/01/30/general-motors-honda-fuel-cell/97235454/

The real cost driver now is CHINA because, as you read this, tens of thousands of China's top engineers are working on the challenge



Launch of the Hydrogen Corridor Development Plan in the Yangtze River Delta Region

SHANGHAI, 28 April 2018 -- The initiation meeting to develop a world class “Hydrogen Corridor” in the Yangtze River Delta Region was held in Shanghai. This marks the official launch of the Hydrogen Corridor Development Plan in the Yangtze River Delta Region.

The International Hydrogen Fuel Cell Association (IHFCA) and the Society of Automotive Engineers of China (SAE-China), in conjunction with Shanghai and four cities (Suzhou, Rugao, Nantong and Yancheng) in Jiangsu Province, will develop a plan with technical and economic feasibility to build the world-class hydrogen infrastructure linking five cities below:... http://www.ihfca.org.cn/a2216.html



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Response to Solesurvivor (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 23, 2018, 10:14 PM

3. It can actually be cheaper, right now it is a case of infrastructure more than anything else

You can run carbureted cars on hydrogen today. Swap for a gaseous fuel carb and then tune and go. Harder with fuel injectors. This was possible 40 years ago.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #3)

Fri Nov 23, 2018, 10:55 PM

6. The Joker drives a hydrogen chevy in 1978



Who's killing the hydrogen car?

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Response to Aquila (Reply #6)

Fri Nov 23, 2018, 11:58 PM

8. Jack Nicholson can foolishly piss away money

He has plenty

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #3)

Sat Nov 24, 2018, 01:14 AM

12. Thanks!

now I can justify getting a 71 Chevelle restored to relive my mispent youth.
Or better yet
https://www.kaiserwillys.com/

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Response to 357blackhawk (Reply #12)

Sat Nov 24, 2018, 01:19 AM

13. Think back about all the powered my LPG fleet vehicles you have seen over the years

Trivial to cut over to hydrogen fuel, the issue is how do you get it and store it. Hydrogen is not new tech when used in internal combustion motors. Fuel cells are.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #3)

Sat Nov 24, 2018, 08:30 AM

15. I disagree, can these cars be as big as a SUV? have the same power?

I am sure you can build two seaters that putter around with hydrogen but most Americans want and need big cars/SUV's.

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Response to Solesurvivor (Reply #15)

Sat Nov 24, 2018, 11:48 AM

16. LPG and Hydrogen are less energy dense than gasoline

However, I have seen full sized truck, even buses running on gaseous fuels. The issue has always been safe storage in the vehicle, refuelings, etc

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Response to Aquila (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2018, 10:15 PM

4. This quy is a silly wrong. Fuel cells are not the only way to use hydrogen in cars

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Response to Aquila (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2018, 10:28 PM

5. Can you please explain the price of electrolyzers?

“The price of electrolysers went from between €2 and €4 million per MW a couple of years ago, to around half a million now.“

How exactly does that work? Electrolyzers do not produce MW (Megawatts), they produce hydrogen. So how do you get electrolyzers costing in power in stead of mass of hydrogen?

C’mon, man! One of your articles finally gives a cost, and it’s fubared.

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Response to fools_gold (Reply #5)

Sat Nov 24, 2018, 12:47 AM

10. They could use different measurements if they wanted I suppose.

You don't buy hydrogen by the MW.
They don't state it in moles or grams with the electrolyser.

Think of it like a power plant, a dam. They are measured by the amount of energy they can provide over a period of time.

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #10)

Sat Nov 24, 2018, 01:34 AM

14. It still doesn't make sense to me

True, you don't buy hydrogen by the MW. You buy it by weight or volume at STP.

And the amount of energy that it can provide over a period of time depends not only on the amount of H2 it can produce, but then what is done with that H2. Is it burned in an ICE? In a fuel cell? With what efficiency? There is no way to tell.

I want the price of the electrolyzer stated in capital cost $ per unit, how much H2 it can produce over it's useful life, and what are the on-going maintenance costs to keep it operating over it's useful life. Then we can get a cost of H2 produced in $/kilogram over it's useful life, just like we do with photovoltaic plants priced in $/MW. No one has ever shown me those figures.

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Response to Aquila (Original post)

Fri Nov 23, 2018, 11:55 PM

7. You still don't get it

The cost of electricity is irrelevant.

When it takes more energy to make energy, you would be wise to use the first energy directly.

NO MATTER WHAT IT COST, silly.

How is your hydrogen powered car doing?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #7)

Sat Nov 24, 2018, 12:22 AM

9. ROFL

One of us isn't "getting it" - and it's not me

---------"When it takes more energy to make energy, you would be wise to use the first energy directly"----

Watch closely and take notes:



These reactions are hilarious.

China and Korea have prioritized this tech, Hydrogen trains are sprouting up in Europe, Western Australia can't stop talking about the new Hydrogen Revolution, England is about to inject city gas lines with hydrogen-- but many North Americans can't even seem to understand the basics. It truly is a laugh riot, more fun than watching a Trump Press Conference.

Something has happened to many American's ability to absorb new information. Perhaps it's the water supply. Maybe start with a good water filter and see if the condition improves, although it may be hard to notice, as I'm guessing the bar starts pretty low.

Stay tuned for more Hydrogen news as the Revolution has Just Begun...

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Response to Aquila (Reply #9)

Sat Nov 24, 2018, 12:58 AM

11. "but many North Americans can't even seem to understand the basics."

Thank you for admitting it.

How is your hydrogen powered car doing?

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Response to Aquila (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 08:05 PM

17. How is your hydrogen powered car doing, Aquilla?

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