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Tue Jan 8, 2019, 05:59 PM

CES 2019 Las Vegas: Toyota Announces Partnership With Kenworth for Hydrogen Fuel Cell Development



The Drive.com | STEPHEN EDELSTEIN | JANUARY 8, 2019

Toyota has been testing prototype hydrogen fuel cell semi trucks in California since late 2017, but now the automaker is ready to step things up. At the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) 2019, Toyota announced that it will partner with Kenworth to develop a fleet of 10 fuel cell trucks.

The trucks will transport cargo across the Los Angeles basin, including to inland cities like Ontario and San Bernardino. The project is being funded by a $41 million grant from the California Air Resources Board (CARB), itself part of a larger $82 million funding program to add more hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles and fueling facilities around the greater Los Angeles area by 2020.

Toyota's choice of Kenworth as a partner is not surprising. The automaker used Kenworth trucks as the basis for its prototype Project Portal hydrogen fuel-cell semis, the first of which began operating in the Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach in October 2017. Toyota introduced an updated second-generation version in 2018, based on the Kenworth T680.

The 10 new trucks will also be based on the T680. In place of their stock diesel engines, Toyota will install hydrogen fuel-cell stacks that generate electricity to power electric motors. Think of it as an upsized version of the powertrain in Toyota's Mirai sedan. The semi trucks will also have backup lithium-ion battery packs. Range will be around 300 miles in normal operating conditions, according to Toyota...more: http://www.thedrive.com/news/25810/toyota-announces-partnership-with-kenworth-for-hydrogen-fuel-cell-development

Toyota Vice President Bob Carter: 2019 International CES Remarks

...And from concepts Toyota has shown at CES, you can see we’re at the cutting edge of this revolution. Now even though new technology is important, what matters is how it serves society. And that’s why our global president Akio Toyoda wants our company to transition from an automobile company to a mobility company, pursuing mobility for all....

..."In the U.S., over 60 percent of all electrified vehicles on the road are a Toyota or Lexus. Globally, we have sold more than 13 million electrified vehicles." https://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/bob+carter+2019+ces+remarks.htm

Toyota Trivia: The company spent about $9 BILLION dollars just on R&D in 2018 alone.





Toyota Fuel Cell Cold Weather Test -20C



Hot weather test +120F

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Reply CES 2019 Las Vegas: Toyota Announces Partnership With Kenworth for Hydrogen Fuel Cell Development (Original post)
Aquila Jan 2019 OP
oflguy Jan 2019 #1
SatansSon666 Jan 2019 #2
oflguy Jan 2019 #3
SatansSon666 Jan 2019 #4
oflguy Jan 2019 #5
SatansSon666 Jan 2019 #6
oflguy Jan 2019 #7
SatansSon666 Jan 2019 #8
oflguy Jan 2019 #10
SatansSon666 Jan 2019 #15
oflguy Jan 2019 #16
SatansSon666 Jan 2019 #17
oflguy Jan 2019 #18
SatansSon666 Jan 2019 #19
oflguy Jan 2019 #20
SatansSon666 Jan 2019 #21
oflguy Jan 2019 #22
SatansSon666 Jan 2019 #23
SatansSon666 Jan 2019 #24
oflguy Jan 2019 #25
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineNew Reply .
SatansSon666 Jan 2019 #26
oflguy Jan 2019 #27
SatansSon666 Jan 2019 #28
oflguy Jan 2019 #29
SatansSon666 Jan 2019 #30
oflguy Jan 2019 #31
SatansSon666 Jan 2019 #32
oflguy Jan 2019 #33
Cold Warrior Jan 2019 #9
oflguy Jan 2019 #11
Cold Warrior Jan 2019 #12
Aquila Jan 2019 #13
oflguy Jan 2019 #14
oflguy Jan 2019 #34

Response to Aquila (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2019, 03:55 PM

1. ANOTHER government grant

OH BOY!

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Response to Aquila (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 08:15 AM

2. It will never work.

Toyota and other manufacturers, all their scientists and chemists in the world are wrong.
The brilliant scientists at discussionist have found a fatal flaw that they all missed.
Energy in is more than energy out.
Therefore it's completely useless.


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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:37 AM

3. I continue to be amazed at how, somehow, wasting energy has become vogue for some people

Just because it is solar or wind?

Fascinating

And, suddenly, environmental ramifications and consequences are OK to ignore.

Intriguing.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:45 AM

4. Not at all.

It's just that people see one thing that confirms their bias and run with it like it's the biggest discovery ever and everyone else in the world, including the people developing the technologies have no idea what they are doing.

Just because of some math they don't like and probably could never calculate if their life depended on it.

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #4)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 09:49 AM

5. "people developing the technologies have no idea what they are doing"

I think they are well aware of what they are doing.

That's my point.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 10:19 AM

6. They absolutely do.

More than anybody here does.

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 03:55 PM

7. So how do you explain their willingness to waste energy?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 05:58 PM

8. I don't have to explain it.

I'm not going to pretend I know something that they don't.
Making hydrogen isn't necessarily wasting energy. That's what people refuse to look past. They see some numbers, doesn't compute, so they leave it there. Ha.. eternal victory.
Unless the laws of thermodynamics and conservation of energy change, their minds never will so they know they will never have to change their minds.
Case closed, nothing to see here, stupid lefty, and so on and so on...

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 05:18 PM

10. And you are not going to

I realize that

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Response to oflguy (Reply #10)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 05:12 AM

15. Nothing to explain.

I can't read their minds.
Everyone knows the math. Especially them.
Everyone acts like it's an end-all situation just because of the energy "wasted" in production.
It isn't, but you can't tell anyone here anything anyway.

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #15)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 06:20 AM

16. If the government forces us to buy it, it won't be the first time they've forced us to buy a fuel

that takes more energy to make it than the fuel provides.

We are forced to buy gasoline with harmful corn in it that damages our cars.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #16)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 06:26 AM

17. A good percentage of hydrogen produced here goes towards refining gasoline.

So, why not use the hydrogen to power vehicles instead of "wasting" it in oil refining?

There are always flaws, but people have to consider everything instead of focusing on the one thing they don't like.
It's an automatic out. Math doesn't add up..
So why learn more.

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #17)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 06:30 AM

18. "So why learn more"

Like what?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #18)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 06:38 AM

19. Would you say producing hydrogen to refine oil

instead of using it directly to power vehicles as "wasting energy"?

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #19)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 06:41 AM

20. Using it in what way?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #20)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 06:45 AM

21. The H2? To refine oil.

Like all the energy required to produce the H2, then using the H2 to refine gasoline instead of using the chemical energy in the h2 to power vehicles. Seems wasteful to me.

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #21)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 06:46 AM

22. Using it how?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #22)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 06:53 AM

23. You'll have to elaborate.

I'll explain what I mean one more time.

Using energy to produce hydrogen, then using the hydrogen to produce fuels for combustion, instead of using the hydrogen to POWER VEHICLES, instead of wasting the chemical.energy to produce gasoline to POWER VEHICLES.
That's just to start. Since h2 can be used for many other applications as well, instead of "wasting" the energy gained by the h2 during the breaking of the covalent bonds holding the water molecules together.

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #23)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 07:41 AM

24. It's a simple yes or no question.

Do you consider it wasting energy to produce hydrogen to refine gasoline to power combustion engines instead of using the hydrogen to power combustion engines?

It's very similar to your argument that it's wasting electrical energy to produce hydrogen to do work the electricity could do.

Shouldn't be too hard to answer.

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #24)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 08:59 AM

25. You know what I'm asking

How do they use hydrogen to make gasoline?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #25)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 09:05 AM

26. .



Guess what happens to the H2 left over after the catalyst is applied?

It's burned out in the stacks as a waste gas.

So, simple question, can you answer it?

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #26)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 09:12 AM

27. Can't read that graph

But if you are saying hydrogen is a byproduct in a cat cracker, then they are not "making hydrogen" to make gasoline.


I'd rather have the cheap gasoline than use expensive and wasteful hydrogen fuel

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Response to oflguy (Reply #27)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 09:28 AM

28. I can read it. It's a little blurry. I'll try to find a better one after.

Are you OK with producing hydrogen to use to produce gasoline to burn, instead of just burning the hydrogen, but not ok with using electricity to make hydrogen to burn because you can just use the electricity?
Seems that way. It's kinda odd that you don't understand how your own argument proves mine.

Of course they are producing hydrogen to use in refining crude oil. Where do you think they are getting it?


Edit..
Found better picture. .

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #28)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 09:55 AM

29. How are they "making the hydrogen?"

What fuel are they using to make it?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #29)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 10:03 AM

30. Probably steam reforming of hydrocarbons.

I used that method before but it creates co2 so using it for hydrogen production for fuel cells isn't as green as some people would like.

Do you think it's wasteful to produce hydrogen to make fuels to do the work that the hydrogen could do?

Answer with another question and we're done here.

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #30)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 10:17 AM

31. Its not what I think that counts

It is wasteful to use electricity to make hydrogen fuel that in turn is used to make electricity to power something.

Don't evade questions and I won't have to keep asking it.

Oh, by the way, they don't "make hydrogen" in a cat cracker, it is supplied by mother nature.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #31)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 11:11 AM

32. I didn't say they make the hydrogen.

The hydrogen is produced to use in the refining process. Hydrogen is also an end product, that is burned off with the other waste gases and elements.
They are developing ways to capture the waste h2 for better efficiency but they aren't there yet.

The loss of energy in the conversion from electrical energy to chemical energy then back to electrical and eventually mechanical energy is your stumbling block.
Sure, just use the electrical energy to charge batteries to store the electrical energy until it is needed to be converted to mechanical energy. Batteries are limited, batteries take a long time to charge and a myriad of other problems that come with using batteries to store energy, they degrade and lose energy and their ability to store energy.. so many things. I'm not against batteries or for hydrogen,hut this one thing that so any of you can't get past is just getting redundant. Storing chemical energy derived from electrical energy to be coverted isn't as straight forward and dumb as you think it is.
Also hydrogen produced to be combusted doesn't have to be converted back to electrical energy first, which was my point in using hydrogen to create combustibles. Although cells seem.seem to be the way things are headed.

You see it as inefficient enough to scrap it.
Well that's your opinion and that's fine.
It seems a lot of people, people that know a lot more than we do, disagree with your opinion.

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #32)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 11:27 AM

33. I'm not suggesting that hydrogen be scrapped as a fuel

I am well aware of the drawbacks of batteries and the wasteful and expensive production involved in isolating hydrogen as a fuel, but I can see a desirable use for it.

On a battlefield, where expense or waste is not a primary issue, but mobility and endurance is, I think combustible hydrogen fuel can be advantageous.

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Response to Aquila (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2019, 06:15 PM

9. Like honey to a bear

this will draw the tecnology/renewable energy/climate change deniers!

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #9)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 05:19 PM

11. So in other words

If you know that man made global warming is a farce, you also have to believe that renewable energy is a farce?

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Response to oflguy (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 06:10 PM

12. Baesed on posters here, there seems to be a whole lot of overlap

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #12)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 06:46 PM

13. Some posters here appear to think that it's their job

to grind people down.

Repeating over and over and over their own misconceptions and ignorance of the processes being discussed.

They don't seem to be able to understand the basic concepts when it comes to hydrogen. And they have lots of free time!

This is why China, Japan and Korea will dominate this industry.

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. America WAS great, before all the money and "brainpower" were siphoned off to perpetuate the PNAC plan of world hegemony. Now it's a bankrupt nation- fiscally, spiritually and morally. Years ago, many used to ask why the German people didn't stop Hitler. In the future, people will ask why the American People didn't stop their rogue government from drone bombing wedding parties and funerals and killing millions of people because of a lie. A lie that they didn't really want investigated- because out of sight, out of mind.

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Response to Aquila (Reply #13)

Fri Jan 11, 2019, 10:23 PM

14. How is that hydrogen car of yours doing?

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #12)

Sat Jan 12, 2019, 11:30 AM

34. renewable energy deniers

You should patent that term.

I don't know any, but I'm sure it will catch on with Lefty.

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