Sciencescience

Thu Jan 24, 2019, 11:52 AM

Hydrogen....

Hydrogen's density is so low that it contains less than 1/300 the energy per given volume compared to gasoline.

Liquefying hydrogen improves hydrogen's density but it is still about 1/4 the energy per given volume compared to gasoline. So liquefied hydrogen will require storage takes 4x the size as gasoline storage tanks to store an equal amount of energy.

Liquefying hydrogen also requires a lot of energy which adds to the already greater energy input it took to create it in the first place (see laws of thermal dynamics).

Hydrogen can embrittle steel and other metals making storing and transporting them much more expensive than gasoline.

Hydrogen is one of the most slippery substances requiring much greater precise tolerance between fittings to safely contain it from leaking. Not only will this cost more but there's foreseeable greater safety problems due to wear over the life of vehicles using it as a fuel as compared to gasoline. Additionally keeping it contained during a wreck and what happens when it becomes un-contained during a wreck is going to be a bigger problem compared to gasoline.

So.... costs more to produce, costs more to store, is less safe, more problematic concerning safety and fundamentally requires greater energy to create and store than it produces when used.

Nope on hydrogen....

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 13 replies Author Time Post
Reply Hydrogen.... (Original post)
Iron Condor Jan 24 OP
def_con5 Jan 24 #1
rahtruelies Jan 24 #2
WhiskeyMakesMeHappy Jan 24 #3
MumblyPeg Jan 24 #4
oflguy Jan 24 #5
Aquila Jan 24 #6
oflguy Jan 24 #8
SatansSon666 Jan 25 #11
oflguy Jan 25 #13
Aquila Jan 24 #7
oflguy Jan 24 #9
SatansSon666 Jan 25 #10
SatansSon666 Jan 25 #12

Response to Iron Condor (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2019, 11:56 AM

1. One more reason

There is no free hydrogen, it bonds very easily.

Takes a lot of energy to break those bonds.

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Response to Iron Condor (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2019, 12:04 PM

3. Aren't those all the same reasons what the Shuttle program changed their foam insulation?

THAT worked out so well.

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Response to Iron Condor (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2019, 12:11 PM

4. it has many advantages in very specific applications.

There's a reason NASA spent billions of dollars and many decades perfecting the ability to control and contain cryo fuel storage mechanisms. It's a real pain in the ass to use hydrogen, especially in launch vehicles, etc... but the density and weight advantages far outweigh the cost factors involved.
So, hydrogen based fueling has it's place.
That being said, common and mainstream use is not even close to being economically viable. It's nothing more than a novelty really. No system grounded in reality is going to use hydrogen for general use. No one would quadruple their energy costs just to say they did it. some people love to post articles about "look! the germans have semi-trucks running on hydrogen!". It's silly, really. But apparently entertaining for those who refute the laws of energy and conversion... not to mention storage.
Of course it's possible. It has been for many MANY decades. If it were viable, it would already have been adopted, and would have been so many years ago. Hydrogen is a lot simpler to extract than finding and pumping oil from the middle of the sea in wells several miles deep. Yet it is still not a mainstream energy source... and that is because no one would pay for this shit, it costs too much.
One would have to cover the entire planet in solar panels to ever hope to make hydrogen a viable competitor to oil... and one would have to assume solar panels themselves are free to acquire, operate and maintain in order to even assume that much.
I just find it comical that the ideology who promotes "SCIENCE!" is the one who near completely rejects science itself.
Lets face it... we are simply dealing with irrational lefty. It's a hatred for oil because thats what the fad says they should do... hate oil, at any cost, by any means. Same with anything else lefty approved. tot hem, reality is but an obstacle to be ignored.

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Response to Iron Condor (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2019, 03:43 PM

5. Don't forget that one "minor" inconvience............pressurization

Hydrogen can exist as a liquid under high pressure and an extremely low temperature of 20.28 kelvin (−252.87°C, −423.17 °F). Hydrogen is often stored in this way as liquid hydrogen takes up less space than hydrogen in its normal gas form. Liquid hydrogen is also used as a rocket fuel, which is why we see that vapor cloud streaming off a rocket before launch.

At atmospheric pressure, hydrogen liquifies/boils/condenses at -252.5C, which means it must be maintained at a pressure of 5,000 psi to 10,000 psi in storage tanks in vehicles, such as a car or truck, just to keep it in a liquid form. This is compared to gasoline which is stored at atmospheric pressure in cars and service station underground tanks.

Hence, its liquefaction imposes a large energy loss (as energy is needed to cool it down to that temperature, and/or to pressurize it to 10,000 psi). The tanks must also be well insulated to prevent boil off but adding insulation increases cost. Liquid hydrogen has less energy density by volume than hydrocarbon fuels such as gasoline by approximately a factor of four. This highlights the density problem for pure hydrogen: there is actually about 64% more hydrogen in a liter of gasoline (116 grams hydrogen) than there is in a liter of pure liquid hydrogen (71 grams hydrogen). The carbon in the gasoline also contributes to the energy of combustion.


Storage of liquid hydrogen is no small obstacle. The small size of hydrogen molecules, coupled with the extreme pressure by which it must be maintained, presents a big problem. Inherent in its manufacture, transfer to storage, transfer to vehicles, and storage in those vehicles is a significant amount of leakage, which presents an environmental hazard as highlighted by several studies on the release of liquid hydrogen to the atmosphere and its effect on the ozone layer.

The ranks of shade tree mechanics would surely thin as the cost of equipment to work on hydrogen cars escellates not to mention the expertise to use that equipment. Naturally, hydrogen cars will be more expensive to maintain. We can all but forget about working on Junior's first car in the garage, unless its something like a wheel bearing.

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Response to oflguy (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 24, 2019, 09:19 PM

6. Wrong again sport

You wrote: "At atmospheric pressure, hydrogen liquifies/boils/condenses at -252.5C, which means it must be maintained at a pressure of 5,000 psi to 10,000 psi in storage tanks in vehicles, such as a car or truck, just to keep it in a liquid form."

NONE of the four hydrogen cars available now from Toyota, Mercedes, Hyundai or Honda use liquid H2. It's at 700 bar though, because the energy density of H2 by weight is only surpassed by nuclear.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

You learn something every day, right? Or some do.

You're way out of your league here and you keep demonstrating this fact over and over and over again.

Toyota shoots a 50 Caliber bullet at the hydrogen tank in their Mirai (that stores gaseous H2)



Try again?

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Response to Aquila (Reply #6)

Thu Jan 24, 2019, 10:16 PM

8. So what? It is still under extreeme pressure, liquid or not

and that is a big problem

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Response to oflguy (Reply #8)

Fri Jan 25, 2019, 08:39 AM

11. Why?

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #11)

Fri Jan 25, 2019, 01:33 PM

13. read my post in this forum

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Response to Iron Condor (Original post)

Thu Jan 24, 2019, 09:29 PM

7. "Nope on hydrogen...."

"Iron Condor" thinks he/she is smarter than the top scientists in China, Korea and Japan and Australia!



China: Launch of the Hydrogen Corridor Development Plan in the Yangtze River Delta Region

SHANGHAI, 28 April 2018 -- The initiation meeting to develop a world class “Hydrogen Corridor” in the Yangtze River Delta Region was held in Shanghai. This marks the official launch of the Hydrogen Corridor Development Plan in the Yangtze River Delta Region.

The International Hydrogen Fuel Cell Association (IHFCA) and the Society of Automotive Engineers of China (SAE-China), in conjunction with Shanghai and four cities (Suzhou, Rugao, Nantong and Yancheng) in Jiangsu Province, will develop a plan with technical and economic feasibility to build the world-class hydrogen infrastructure linking five cities below: http://www.ihfca.org.cn/a2216.html

"Hydrogen city" to be built in Wuhan, central China

Korea sets FCEV target at 80,000 units by 2022.

“We have come up with a strategy that covers a wide range of hydrogen-related fields to secure the top position in the global markets of FCEVs and fuel cells,” Hong said

S. Korean President Moon Declares Move Toward 'Hydrogen Economy'



Australia's top scientist calls for hydrogen revolution to replace fossil fuels

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Response to Aquila (Reply #7)

Thu Jan 24, 2019, 10:18 PM

9. Keep shilling for your fantasy industry

You'll never see it happen, other than government funded advertising campaigns.

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Response to Iron Condor (Original post)


Response to Iron Condor (Original post)

Fri Jan 25, 2019, 08:53 AM

12. Hydrogen has 3 times the energy content of gasoline per mass unit.

Name something that gives you more energy out than is put into it. ( see laws.of thermodynamics)

Embrittlement can be a probem when using certain metals in storage containers but aluminum carbon alloy containers are very resistant to embrittlement and can withstand a high caliber bullet impact.

After a wreck, if a tank ruptures, the hydrogen will rise and dissipate immediately. It won't stick around and pool on the ground as a liquid or as a vapor like dense gasoline does. Gasoline during a wreck is far more dangerous.
Who is telling you this stuff?


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