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Tue May 13, 2014, 06:17 PM

NY Times: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal

Last edited Wed May 14, 2014, 01:50 PM - Edit history (1)

Toyota said on Monday that it would allow a battery-supply deal with Tesla Motors to expire this year and would focus instead on building cars running on hydrogen fuel cells, a next-generation technology that rivals Tesla’s all-electric systems.

...The Japanese automaker said its focus this year would instead be on its four-door sedan powered by hydrogen fuel cells, which it plans to introduce in California next year. The automaker will also focus on developing hydrogen refueling stations to support fuel-cell technology, it said.

...“It’s obvious Toyota doesn’t see a market for electric vehicles,” said John O’Dell, green-car analyst at the auto-research site Edmunds.com. “They really see the future of the zero-emission vehicle as the hydrogen vehicle,” he said.

“In partnering with Tesla, there might have been a message there that Toyota was looking at the possibility” of a wider partnership with the Silicon Valley manufacturer, he said. “But they can’t even give these cars away. Why continue doing this?”

Full article: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/13/business/energy-environment/seeing-future-in-fuel-cells-toyota-ends-tesla-deal.html

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Reply NY Times: Seeing Future in Fuel Cells, Toyota Ends Tesla Deal (Original post)
Spookie Spook May 2014 OP
UpstateDown May 2014 #1
Spookie Spook May 2014 #2
UpstateDown May 2014 #3
fools_gold May 2014 #9
akaConcernedCanuk May 2014 #4
Chuck Schick May 2014 #5
akaConcernedCanuk May 2014 #6
Chuck Schick May 2014 #8
Spookie Spook May 2014 #7
SweetHouse Mar 2018 #10

Response to Spookie Spook (Original post)

Tue May 13, 2014, 08:14 PM

1. I see jobs ahead for hydrogen fuel cell trained mechanics

But a mechanic needs to specialize these days.

Electric cars, Hybrids, Combustion engines, hydrogen fuel cell-powered, diesels, bio-diesels - that's a hunka lotta stuff to tackle there.

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Response to UpstateDown (Reply #1)

Wed May 14, 2014, 01:28 PM

2. A fuel cell has no moving parts

that's a plus

The only real difference b/w a Fuel Cell electric and a Battery electric is that the Fuel cell car generates its own electricity. That and the fact that there isn't a half ton of battery to lug around and possibly catch fire.

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Response to Spookie Spook (Reply #2)

Wed May 14, 2014, 06:14 PM

3. True

but each type has its own safety training and the wiring and such will be very different.

It's a good thing, if these take off.

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Response to Spookie Spook (Reply #2)

Sat May 17, 2014, 10:45 PM

9. Technically maybe, but not really

True, the actual fuel cell membrane stack has no moving parts, but it doesn't do anything by itself. It also has to have pumps, blowers, valves, and a few other pieces to actually produce any energy. These items are known as "balance of plant" or BOP in the business.

" ...there isn't a half ton of battery to lug around and possibly catch fire."

But there is a tank of compressed hydrogen to carry around and possibly catch fire.

But I still want one.

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Response to Spookie Spook (Original post)

Fri May 16, 2014, 02:51 AM

4. - - If my only choices were electric powered like Tesla, or hydrogen - electric wins.


Hydrogen is just too damn explosive.

Car accidents will be the biggest danger, never mind leaks in one's garage, etc.

A ruptured line/tank in a car accident can ignite hydrogen spontaneously in contact with air, unlike gasoline which would need a hot spark.

Gasoline does not "explode" - it burns fast. Rarely does a gas tank explode like we see on the movies all the time - it takes a contained vessel of gas FUMES to explode. Try it - throw a match into an old soup can full of gas; it'll just burn slowly. Try something else - throw a burning cigarette into a soup can with gas - the cigarette will just snuff out, gas won't even ignite. Movies have brainwashed us in that respect (and many others).

The thought of many mini Hindenburgs on the roads is a little bit terrifying to me.

I'm a retired mechanic, don't drive much anymore, so I'll stick to gas for myself. If I was driving a whole lot of miles then I would go electric, but that ain't gonna happen in my lifetime.

Heck, my insurance cost is about 10 times my gas cost at this point - considering giving up driving totally soon (although I do like driving). FYI - my total gas cost so far this year is only 50 bucks - right - it'd be cheaper for me to just use cabs.

That's my 5 cents worth . .

CC

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Response to akaConcernedCanuk (Reply #4)

Fri May 16, 2014, 03:20 AM

5. "...ignite hydrogen spontaneously in contact with air" - No

I vote electric too, but hydrogen does not spontaneously ignite with air.

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Response to Chuck Schick (Reply #5)

Fri May 16, 2014, 03:54 AM

6. - " Hydrogen gas leaking into external air may spontaneously ignite."


Better send in a correction then . .

"Hydrogen poses a number of hazards to human safety, from potential detonations and fires when mixed with air to being an asphyxiant in its pure, oxygen-free form. In addition, liquid hydrogen is a cryogen and presents dangers (such as frostbite) associated with very cold liquids. Hydrogen dissolves in many metals, and, in addition to leaking out, may have adverse effects on them, such as hydrogen embrittlement, leading to cracks and explosions. Hydrogen gas leaking into external air may spontaneously ignite. Moreover, hydrogen fire, while being extremely hot, is almost invisible, and thus can lead to accidental burns.

Even interpreting the hydrogen data (including safety data) is confounded by a number of phenomena. Many physical and chemical properties of hydrogen depend on the parahydrogen/orthohydrogen ratio (it often takes days or weeks at a given temperature to reach the equilibrium ratio, for which the data is usually given). Hydrogen detonation parameters, such as critical detonation pressure and temperature, strongly depend on the container geometry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen

CC

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Response to akaConcernedCanuk (Reply #6)

Fri May 16, 2014, 05:39 AM

8. "the temperature of spontaneous ignition in air, is 500 °C (932 °F)"

From your link, I stand corrected... Just add 932 degrees...

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Response to akaConcernedCanuk (Reply #4)

Fri May 16, 2014, 04:07 AM

7. "if my only choices were electric powered like Tesla, or hydrogen - electric wins."

Hydrogen fuel cell cars are electric vehicles. Hydrogen electric. Instead of a flammable battery pack that weighs 1,000 pounds -and can catch fire- you have a tank that has proven itself for years. The Honda hydrogen electric Clarity has been driving around since 2008 with no reported problems AFAIK.

Check out Top Gear's review of the Hydrogen electric Clarity from 2008:
http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/honda-clarity

Here's a picture of Toyota's hydrogen tank



Toyota fires bullets into hydrogen fuel tanks

With some industry members and analysts questioning both the viability and durability of hydrogen fuel-cell electric vehicles, Toyota executive Bob Carter, speaking at the Automotive News World Congress this week, says the Japanese automaker went all Clint Eastwood on the fuel tanks of a fuel-cell prototype. Carter says that bullets from a small-caliber gun bounced off the carbon-fiber tanks, and that .50-caliber bullets barely made dents...

"Personally, I don't care what Elon (Musk), Carlos (Ghosn) or Jonathan (Browning) say about fuel cells. If they want to 'plug in and tune out' other technologies, that's fine." http://green.autoblog.com/2014/01/16/toyota-fires-bullets-hydrogen-fuel-tanks-shoots-ev-supporter/

GM’s hydrogen fuel-cell test fleet logs 3 million miles over 7 years on U.S. roads
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/gm-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-log-3-million-miles-in-testing/

Car accidents will be the biggest danger, never mind leaks in one's garage, etc.

A ruptured line/tank in a car accident can ignite hydrogen spontaneously in contact with air, unlike gasoline which would need a hot spark.

Hydrogen is safer than gas, according to Dr. Michael R. Swain University of Miami


guess which vehicle is hydrogen powered

Fuel Leak Simulation (PDF)
https://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/30535be.pdf

The thought of many mini Hindenburgs on the roads is a little bit terrifying to me
No one wants a bunch of hindenburgs, Toyota, Hyundai and Honda included. Do you think they would knowingly introduce a vehicle that would blow up easily?

Many people store hundreds of gallons of highly flammable explosive gas right next to their houses.



Sometimes they blow up



Hydrogen is safer than propane because it rises into the sky, whereas propane sinks and collects, waiting for a spark.

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Response to Spookie Spook (Original post)

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