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Sun Oct 21, 2018, 11:41 PM

Alcohol vs Marijuana

Last edited Mon Nov 19, 2018, 04:58 PM - Edit history (1)

Recently I was supporting a local work related evening event for my hubby. EMS was present as required. Part way through, a someone came and got me, saying I was needed in the parking lot. Looked to have been a fight with broken beer bottles or equivalent. He got a long ride to the nearest hospital. I called the hospital while they were enroute. They called me back later to say he was admitted with unlying damage I had suspected and knew I could not repair locally.

I am not a big fan of MJ legalization. We don’t have adequate quantitative tests for intoxication, most of the stuff sold, even in California, has bad residue on it, etc. However, I have never seen someone under the influence of THC, and I have seen many, go after someone with a weapon.

Though I am fond of a nice Merlot or even a Stout when I am offline, there are times I think we should switch what is legal and what is illegal. That is certainly not practical, but sometimes I just wonder…

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Arrow 32 replies Author Time Post
Reply Alcohol vs Marijuana (Original post)
His Daughter Oct 2018 OP
Gamle-ged Oct 2018 #1
His Daughter Oct 2018 #4
Gamle-ged Oct 2018 #5
His Daughter Oct 2018 #7
Iron Condor Oct 2018 #2
Grumpy Pickle Oct 2018 #8
Iron Condor Oct 2018 #10
Grumpy Pickle Oct 2018 #11
Iron Condor Oct 2018 #12
His Daughter Oct 2018 #20
Iron Condor Oct 2018 #21
His Daughter Oct 2018 #22
Iron Condor Oct 2018 #23
Nostrings Nov 2018 #30
akaConcernedCanuk Oct 2018 #3
His Daughter Oct 2018 #6
akaConcernedCanuk Oct 2018 #13
His Daughter Oct 2018 #15
akaConcernedCanuk Oct 2018 #16
His Daughter Oct 2018 #17
oldenuff35 Oct 2018 #9
Currentsitguy Oct 2018 #19
FreeWheelBurning Nov 2018 #25
Currentsitguy Nov 2018 #27
orson Nov 2018 #29
HerasHeaddress Oct 2018 #14
SatansSon666 Oct 2018 #18
FreeWheelBurning Nov 2018 #26
SatansSon666 Nov 2018 #28
Currentsitguy Nov 2018 #31
SatansSon666 Nov 2018 #32
FreeWheelBurning Nov 2018 #24

Response to His Daughter (Original post)

Sun Oct 21, 2018, 11:53 PM

1. Once it's legal, no one is going to make it illegal, save by Draconian measures. Horse.. barn door..

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Response to Gamle-ged (Reply #1)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 12:10 AM

4. But you can still refuse to hire/ban THC users, at least for now.

I was overseas when the bans on employees using tobacco products first started. They are apparently legal. I assume that bans on THC users will remain so as well.

Unlike alcohol, we do not have a quantitative ways to measure THC levels and therefore intoxication, like we do with alcohol.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #4)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 12:12 AM

5. Sounds like full employment for the lawyerly class for some years to come...

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Response to Gamle-ged (Reply #5)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 12:17 AM

7. In California, the lawyers were running out of clients with enough money

Mostly those from lower tier school that did not get into the big name firms.

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Response to His Daughter (Original post)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 12:00 AM

2. A few things to point out

- No one has ever died because of OD'ing on THC
- Someone stoned doesn't go home and beat up their wife
- No one stoned wakes up the next day with a hangover
- No one who's addicted to a substance is addicted to THC
- None or next to none of the convicts in prison for violent crimes were stoned at the time of their violent crime

I have no problem with alcohol. I enjoy a glass of wine or a bottle of beer from time to time. It certainly can be consumed responsibly and is by most people who consume it. But compared to marijuana, yes, alcohol is more problematic with regards to public health & safety concerns.

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Response to Iron Condor (Reply #2)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 01:09 AM

8. Would you like a stoned pilot to be flying your airplane ?

How bout a stoned surgeon or dentist working on you ?

Maybe a stoned bus driver driving you kids to school ?

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Response to Grumpy Pickle (Reply #8)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 01:48 AM

10. No I would not in either of those cases

Likewise I wouldn't want any of these persons while performing their employment duties to be under the influence of any intoxicating substance including alcohol as well. I also don't like seeing all the people I see on the road driving while texting on their cell phones. That's another pet-peeve of mine.

I also believe any employer has the right, since it is their business and their responsibility, to be able to make company policy baring any kind of intoxication from its employees while on company premises.

But when it comes to a person's personal conduct on their own time and more-so while in their own home to have the freedom of autonomy over their own mind and body. While I believe in law & order, and, public health & safety. I also believe in freedom.

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Response to Iron Condor (Reply #10)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 02:02 AM

11. You can not hold a responsible job and smoke weed.

Even if you only smoke on the weekends, it's still in your system and will give you a positive drug test.

Too many people are getting lured into using it with the " but it's legal now " mentality.

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Response to Grumpy Pickle (Reply #11)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 02:13 AM

12. What's left in a person's system after they are no longer intoxicated

has been metabolized and is inert and no longer an intoxicating substance.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Marijuana Drug Test Detection

The most popular kind of drug test is the urine test, which can detect marijuana for days or weeks after use. **Note that urine tests do not detect the psychoactive component in marijuana, THC (delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol), and therefore in no way measure impairment; rather, they detect the non-psychoactive marijuana metabolite THC-COOH, which can linger in the body for days and weeks with no impairing effects. Because of THC-COOH's unusually long elimination time, urine tests are more sensitive to marijuana than other commonly used drugs. According to a survey by Quest Diagnostics, 50% of all drug test positives are for marijuana.

Blood tests are a better detector of recent use, since they measure the active presence of THC in the system. Because they are invasive and difficult to administer, blood tests are used less frequently. They are typically used in investigations of accidents, injuries and DUIs, where they can give a useful indication of whether the subject was actually under the influence.
---

Unlike urine, blood test results can give a useful indicator of whether one is under the influence of marijuana. Studies have shown that high THC blood levels are correlated with impaired driving. An expert panel review of scientific studies on driving under the influence of cannabis concluded that THC levels above 3.5 - 5 ng/ml in blood (or 7 - 10 ng/ml in serum) indicate likely impairment . The same review found no increased driving hazard at low levels of THC. Despite the fact that accident studies have repeatedly failed to find evidence of increased driving risk at low levels (1 or 2 ng in blood) of THC, numerous states and foreign countries have enacted "zero-tolerance" laws, treating any non-zero trace of THC as legal evidence for driving under the influence. Others have fixed, per se limits above which DUI is presumed, often with no scientific basis. However, most states (including California) don't have per se limits, but define DUI in terms of whether the totality of evidence (including drug test results) shows that the driver was impaired by marijuana or drugs.

http://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/drugtestguide/drugtestdetection.html

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Response to Iron Condor (Reply #12)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 03:21 PM

20. The tests and standards are not as well defined as that article states

CO set a standard but it is contested and for good reason. Fat solubility of THC makes it hard to get valid quantitative data of recent use. No standard test is universally admissible. Most DUI under MJ cases are based on officer observations and so called specially trained drug recognition experts. A lot of those cases are weak and are either bargained down or lost. Also note that it is hard to distinguish between CBD and THC in terms of residuals, though one is legal and one is not.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #20)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 07:26 PM

21. THC dissolved in fat

I profess I am no doctor or trained in the medical field or biology. So this is just my opinion based on anecdotal evidence from my experiences back when I was a teenager.

I would imagine any THC which has been dissolved in fat is effectively scrubbed from the bloodstream and will not be making it to the brain to cause its intoxicating effects. It would be my guess that this is the case since the people who get intoxicated consuming marijuana don't stay intoxicated the whole time while THC is suspended in their fat cells.

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Response to Iron Condor (Reply #21)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 10:30 PM

22. It returns slowly into the blood stream and in the process makes testing questionable

is the problem. Same with any other fat soluble chemical. It won't get you high. Also it means that long term users
can end up with a reasonably high level in their bloodstream without being impaired.

My point is that it makes valid testing harder. Lack of reliable and quantifiable testing is one of the issues with cannabis in wide use.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #22)

Tue Oct 23, 2018, 05:39 AM

23. I would both agree and disagree

What I mean is in your case I think you are looking for an absolute. However in the case of marijuana absolute doesn't seem to be necessary to be effective. It would appear the rate at which THC is released from fat is not sufficient to cause intoxication. Again, the people who consume marijuana do not remain intoxicated while THC is suspended in their fat cells then being released over time.

Therefore since this is the case any THC which is at the time of testing suspended in fat cells is effectively insignificant to cause any concern. At least regarding intoxication that is. And any THC which has been released back into the bloodstream from fat cells at the time of testing will be seen by the testing and its levels in the bloodstream determined at that time and therefore 'effectively' able to determine whether the person was intoxicated at the time of testing or not.

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Response to Grumpy Pickle (Reply #8)

Mon Nov 26, 2018, 09:25 PM

30. If I had to choose between stoned and drunk, I'd take the stoned driver/dentist every time.

Contrary to popular belief, one does not lose control of ones faculties smoking weed, like one does drinking.


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Response to His Daughter (Original post)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 12:06 AM

3. Let me put it this way . . .

If suddenly MJ was legal, and alcohol was not (and strictly enforced),

who would fight the wars we thrive on?

Also, I pretty sure that the alcohol I consume does more damage to my body than weed ever will - ya just can't smoke too much weed - ya get hungry - ya pig out, then pass out . . . . . . purty much skip that eating thing if ya get totalled on booze . . . .

I never believed that crap about weed being a "gateway" drug - oh yeah - I dabbled in the "other" stuff - MDA was great back in the early 70s b4 it started getting cut with toxins, but it was an occasional week-end "plus" - never really liked some of the loss of control, so my "dabbles" into "H" and speed were one- time only thingies

Give me a doobie, and it'll keep me happy for a day or two or three . . .

yep - when supplies allow, just a few tokes a day suits me fine, but mostly just been a few a week . . .

OH yeah - it's legal here now, and my "supply" is "in the mail"

Literally!



CC

ps: - I'm in Ontario - mail order is the ONLY way we can buy cannabis legally . . .

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Response to akaConcernedCanuk (Reply #3)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 12:16 AM

6. There are some studies out there that THC is worse for developing brains than alcohol

However true quantitative studies have not been done, and could not be done within current protocols. Not saying I am against it, but there are issues with it and alcohol that are often overlooked.

I read where the national supply was almost sold out in the first few days in Canada. Another thing to consider is the purity of the source. Half the stuff currently sold in California does not meet the purity/lack of contamination standards that are about to come online. Not sure what your rules are for that there.

Colorado has had some issues with traffic injury rates. Without a solid quantitative test, DUI is going to be the officers word against the one charged. Never like that situation.

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #6)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 03:59 AM

13. Well, first off, my 67 year old brain is WAY past the "developing" stage,

which stats suggest is pretty much done by 25 . . . . .

and one couldn't possibly smoke enuf weed to do the damage nicotine does to a smoker (which I am, although quitting, down to >10/day now), or what daily alcohol consumption does to a drinker . . .

And no, - "national" supply was nowhere near sold out, some suppliers weren't ready for the surge at the onset and a few popular items sold out right off the bat, and only in a couple of Provinces - no worries

I ain't worried about the quality either - seeing (at least in Ontario) the Government is monitoring the quantity and quality of the products, I'm sure they'll do their best to protect their new cash cow to snag as many tax $$ as possible.

OH - in case ur interested - here's our website that has the info, as well as the link to the "store"

https://ocs.ca

- you should be able to cruise thru it, even "shop", but you wouldn't get thru the payment phase unless you had an Ontario address to ship it to . . . .

Finally -

I wonder how far my little graphic will go - I saw this satellite image,and hadda add my text to it . . .





CC

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Response to akaConcernedCanuk (Reply #13)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 10:43 AM

15. Smoke of any kind is hard on the lungs

Vaping is clearly the way to go for drug delivery to lower collateral damage, though care with ingredients needs to be taken.

Some of the articles here in the states talked about a sellout of supplies. I found that humorous. Also an article posted here about how the demand was somehow bad for offshore growers.

I forwarded your graphic to a few friends.

Be interesting to see how it develops. I figure at some point some state/entity which legalized it will decide to recriminalize it and then the fun will begin

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Response to His Daughter (Reply #15)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 11:29 AM

16. I agree on that smoking/lungs thing

I know better than to have a smoke b4 doing anything the least bit strenuous now - ergo my program to quit.

With that in mind, as well as my cannabis order I ordered one of these guys from tvape.ca



Around $150 with tax and shipping, but I think a wee bit more longevity is worth the $$$

RECRIMINALIZE IT? - I sorta doubt it - maybe change some regs around it like age requirement, possession limits, but I cannot see a nation survive tryna take something away that the people want so badly . .

Ya know how prohibition turned out,

and that "drug war"?

Billions are still being made by the criminal elements that are more than willing to risk the penalties because the demand just will NOT GO AWAY.

Best figure out a way to control it, and teach one's citizens best how to handle it . . . .

Oh yeah, there's no win-win, just like there isn't/wasn't with booze - booze is legal now, but still is a major cause of death and violence

(sigh)

CC

ETA: - I don't think we will see any upsurge in death or violence as a result of cannabis legalization - maybe even the opposite . . .

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Response to akaConcernedCanuk (Reply #16)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 12:29 PM

17. The issue in Colorado that everyone is talking about is driving incidents

And there has been an uptick in injuries and deaths.

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Response to His Daughter (Original post)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 01:15 AM

9. I have to agree with this post. Stoned people are almost never violent, drunks are violent.

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Response to oldenuff35 (Reply #9)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 02:35 PM

19. Not if you don't already have those tendencies

I know the more I imbibe the sillier I get. All I ever end up doing it telling bad jokes. Then again I tell lots of bad jokes when I am sober as a judge.

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Response to Currentsitguy (Reply #19)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 05:00 PM

25. Wether you have tendencies or not is immaterial

I have known more than a handful of people that were never violent sober but could be when drunk. The catalyst is the alcohol.

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Response to FreeWheelBurning (Reply #25)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 05:17 PM

27. I have never met a one

If it ain't in you, it ain't in you. If it only comes out when intoxicated, you're just really good at hiding or suppressing it, but trust me, it's always there.

I've seen a few really screwed up situations in my day, and every single one of them was from someone who wasn't all that stable sober including a guy who locked himself in my bathroom with a gun and threatened to shoot himself. After breaking down the door and taking his gun, he was thrown out and told to never return.

In my experience there are three types: Happy/silly, morose/depressed, and angry/violent. Each and every one of the types are simply more amplified versions of their everyday selves.

BTW: Stay the hell away from Jack drinkers. They're all nuts.

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Response to FreeWheelBurning (Reply #25)

Sat Nov 24, 2018, 06:35 PM

29. Even Supreme Court Justices

may become violent when disguised by drink.

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Response to His Daughter (Original post)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 07:29 AM

14. Have always

felt MJ is not as dangerous as alcohol as far as violent behavior. More studies are needed to determine long term effects of MJ. Were it legal at least the purity could be controlled.

Anecdotally, I've been a passenger with a driver under the influence of one or the other. In both instances I was scared shitless. The drunk was swerving, taking dangerous chances; the stoned wouldn't drive over 15 miles an hour, forget to step on the gas when a light turned green. Both insisted they were 'good to go' as far as driving.

Personally, I use neither substance.

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Response to His Daughter (Original post)

Mon Oct 22, 2018, 01:05 PM

18. I don't smoke a whole lot, but I drink quite a bit of beer.

If I was walking down the road and saw a field full of drunks partying and a field full of stoners partying.
I'd go hang with the stoners.
I'd feel safer going to hang with the stoners.

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #18)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 05:02 PM

26. safer yes but very boring

I have not smoked much since high school and I am in my 50s now. I stopped at such a young age because stoner parties typically turned into a snooze fest with everyone half asleep within a couple of hours. You can only watch The Wall so many times.

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Response to FreeWheelBurning (Reply #26)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 06:03 PM

28. hahah, yeah.

Might be a little more boring, but nobody is gonna puke on you or fight at the stoner party.

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #28)

Wed Nov 28, 2018, 07:16 PM

31. Speak for yourself

Back in my college days when I still occasionally partook I puked every single time. It was the price of admission.

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Response to Currentsitguy (Reply #31)

Wed Nov 28, 2018, 07:32 PM

32. Weed never made me puke unless I was drinking.

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Response to His Daughter (Original post)

Mon Nov 19, 2018, 04:54 PM

24. Similar experience here

Alcohol fuels more violence than marijuana and it is not even close.

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