Beliefsbeliefs

Wed Oct 10, 2018, 04:27 PM

I can't help but notice

The our atheist evolution believers here are much like the Dems on the Senate Judiciary committee.

The cling to evolution like it was fact and yet there is barely even any circumstantial information to support it!
While the hard verifiable evidence all supports the creation model, just like the hard verifiable facts supported Kavanaugh.

To hold on to their belief (like the Dems held on to Blasey Ford) Instead of letting the evidence that was there instruct them, they go low and like the dems- go on a pilgrimage of character assault, innuendo, and ignorance.

Oh well I guess we should not expect much better from those who think their family tree, was actually a tree! And whenh they say "Well I'll be a monkeys uncle", they actually mean it!!!

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Arrow 94 replies Author Time Post
Reply I can't help but notice (Original post)
nolidad Oct 10 OP
foia Oct 10 #1
nolens volens Oct 10 #3
freedumb2003 Oct 10 #5
foia Oct 10 #7
freedumb2003 Oct 10 #8
foia Oct 10 #9
freedumb2003 Oct 10 #10
foia Oct 10 #11
freedumb2003 Oct 10 #12
foia Oct 10 #13
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #43
foia Oct 12 #60
nolidad Oct 12 #62
foia Oct 12 #69
nolidad Oct 13 #72
foia Oct 13 #73
nolidad Oct 13 #77
foia Oct 13 #79
nolidad Oct 14 #80
foia Oct 14 #81
Cold Warrior Oct 14 #82
nolidad Oct 14 #84
foia Oct 14 #88
nolidad Oct 15 #89
SatansSon666 Oct 14 #86
nolidad Oct 11 #16
Cold Warrior Oct 11 #14
nolidad Oct 11 #17
nolens volens Oct 11 #27
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #30
nolens volens Oct 11 #35
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #37
nolens volens Oct 11 #44
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #47
nolidad Oct 12 #61
SatansSon666 Oct 11 #22
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #31
Cold Warrior Oct 11 #33
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #36
Cold Warrior Oct 11 #39
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #45
Cold Warrior Oct 11 #51
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #55
Cold Warrior Oct 11 #57
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #58
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #38
Cold Warrior Oct 11 #40
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #49
Cold Warrior Oct 11 #53
nolidad Oct 12 #65
nolidad Oct 12 #63
nolidad Oct 12 #64
nolens volens Oct 11 #26
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #28
nolens volens Oct 11 #34
HerasHeaddress Oct 10 #6
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #32
Cold Warrior Oct 11 #15
nolidad Oct 11 #18
SatansSon666 Oct 11 #21
Cold Warrior Oct 11 #24
SatansSon666 Oct 11 #25
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #41
nolens volens Oct 11 #46
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #48
nolens volens Oct 11 #50
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #52
nolens volens Oct 11 #54
SatansSon666 Oct 12 #59
nolidad Oct 11 #19
foia Oct 11 #20
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #56
nolidad Oct 12 #66
SatansSon666 Oct 12 #68
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #29
nolidad Oct 12 #67
SatansSon666 Oct 12 #71
nolens volens Oct 10 #2
freedumb2003 Oct 10 #4
SatansSon666 Oct 11 #23
freedumb2003 Oct 11 #42
SatansSon666 Oct 13 #75
nolidad Oct 12 #70
SatansSon666 Oct 13 #74
freedumb2003 Oct 13 #76
nolidad Oct 13 #78
freedumb2003 Oct 14 #83
nolidad Oct 14 #85
SatansSon666 Oct 14 #87
EtherealBridge Nov 8 #90
Cold Warrior Nov 9 #91
SatansSon666 Nov 9 #92
Cold Warrior Nov 9 #93
SatansSon666 Nov 9 #94

Response to nolidad (Original post)

Wed Oct 10, 2018, 04:51 PM

1. There's some holes in evolution

but it seems much more credible than some deity magically creating the Garden of Eden. Much like Kav's testimony is much more credible than Ford's.

Also, being non-religious, I care about the creation vs. evolution question about as much as I care what shoes Kim Kandashian chose to wear today.

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Response to foia (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 10, 2018, 05:07 PM

3. No Gods No Masters!

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Response to nolens volens (Reply #3)

Wed Oct 10, 2018, 05:39 PM

5. Typical atheist

You can't argue so you just insult.

By definition atheists are incapable of being moral since their "morality" is based on their whim. If tomorrow you decided to go on a rampage there is no moral authority to stop you -- only fear of man's punishment.

You may not LIKE the idea of God who loves us and sent his Son to die for us. But He is there and that is what happened.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #5)

Wed Oct 10, 2018, 06:18 PM

7. The notion that non-religious people have no morals is downright silly.

I don't steal from others and commit acts of violence because I have conscience.

As for morality, look at how churches cover up pedophilia even at the highest, most holy, ranks.

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Response to foia (Reply #7)

Wed Oct 10, 2018, 06:37 PM

8. But the only guide you have is your own concept of morality

There is nothing that keeps you from going renegade since there is no downside.

Atheists are nihilistic. You are not good to be a good person. You are good b/c it provides pleasure or fear of man's laws.

Your reference to the Catholic Church is a non sequitur. The pedophile priests and their enablers will indeed answer to God.

I find many who are religious are not really believers. They choose religion as a vocation to create meaning. The laity OTOH keep God in their hearts.

That is an OBSERVATION of my own making. I could be completely wrong but it was I have observed, especially as a lapsed Catholic.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #8)

Wed Oct 10, 2018, 06:53 PM

9. I'm not good to be a good person?

I only fear laws? That may be what you think but when I'm a good person I do it because I enjoy being a good person and helping other people out. I'd much rather make someone else smile than ruin their day.

And I don't tell them they are going to suffer eternally because they have different beliefs than I do.

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Response to foia (Reply #9)

Wed Oct 10, 2018, 07:06 PM

10. You make my point for me. You are "good" b/c it makes you feel good.

Altruism is an option that triggers your endorphin response centers. It isn't a moral imperative. It is merely a chemical response like eating or having sex. If you chose another way to be pleased, there is nothing that stops that from happening, except fear of prosecution.

If there is no afterlife then I guess you need not worry about eternal damnation.

I think everyone is entitled to their own beliefs about the afterlife (or not). But to some degree like with all things, there are consequences to be considered.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #10)

Wed Oct 10, 2018, 07:36 PM

11. Does going to church trigger your endorphins?

The thought of going to heaven?

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Response to foia (Reply #11)

Wed Oct 10, 2018, 07:54 PM

12. I don't go to church -- my relationship with God is a bit more personal

Some like church as a mechanism to be closer to God, some like it for social reasons, some use it as pure avarice.

My endorphins really don't get fired off. God has made it clear to me He has a Plan. Now, I am no more able to discern that Plan than a small ant trying to discern a tapestry upon which it treads. Said ant knows the tapestry is there, since it can fell its heft and feel. A clever ant can even measure it and define the tapestry's physical parameters.

But it will never be able to "SEE" it.

My request of God is that I see the tapestry in the afterlife. And be reunited with the souls of the people and pets I loved so dearly.

So little of our existence makes scientific sense. The Earth is an oddball place and the parameters for life even more oddball.

I won't even go into the astounding fact that Jesus as a historical figure changed the course of humanity. How so? His statements are internally consistent.

Jesus also made it clear that science belongs in a separate domain than faith. Crystal clear.

The Bible is NOT a science text. It is a moral text that is a blueprint for how Man should treat each other and, through that, how to get closer to God.

That is the best I can do without writing an entire missive on theology.

In the absence of God, love is merely a chemical reaction and altruism/morality merely a means to an end.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #12)

Wed Oct 10, 2018, 09:09 PM

13. You think there are clever ants that measure things?

Mmmm. OK.

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Response to foia (Reply #13)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 02:51 PM

43. That went right over your head, didn't it?

I will try to be a little less oblique in the future.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #43)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 07:14 AM

60. What went over my head?

I just assume that you're a very unique and superior human being since, according to you, you have no endorphins. You make Mr. Spock proud.

And I still want to hear more about clever ants that measure things vs. run-of-the-mill ants that don't. Is there some empirical evidence to support this concept?

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Response to foia (Reply #9)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 04:10 PM

62. But foia please do not take this wrong.

But who decides what is good and not good? society? You? what about societies that go against your concept of good? are they evil? Why?

Who in your concepts decides what and bad and is it good and bad for all or just for some or just you?

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Response to nolidad (Reply #62)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 04:39 PM

69. A lot of it boils down to plain old common sense.

If I find a wallet on the street do I steal the money/credit cards and throw it in a dumpster or do I try to find a way to get it back to its rightful owner? In that sort of situation the good course of action is obvious, no religion required.

Though it's origins are The Sermon On The Mount the expression "do unto others..." can be interpreted and applied secularly.

As far as the concept of evil goes, from a secular perspective the source of evil in not being tempted by Satan but a person who lacks compassion for others in one or more ways. The root causes of such behavior can be either nature (mental illness) or nurture/environment (bad parents, growing up in a bad hood, survival in a bad environment, Islam, etc...)

In general, cultural norms determine what is good or bad as well as one's personal opinion. Even within a religious congregation you'll find people who have differing opinions on what constitutes good or bad. For example, some Catholics see abortion as murder while others find it an acceptable practice.

But I think we can all agree that DiFi is pure evil.

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Response to foia (Reply #69)

Sat Oct 13, 2018, 05:41 AM

72. Well I agree that people who are atheist or even satanists can do "good" things.

But evil is not from Satan alone. As Gods Word said the 3 greatest enemy of a person are: 1 the devil ,2 the world's attitudes, and 3 ones own fallen human nature.

Very few people have ever become as bad as they can be! but what is being asked is what is the basis for your version of "goodness".

You say a wallet as an example but yet the average person would most likely keep the money! Not the cards because today people can cancel cards in a minute. So is their common sense bad while yours is good? Why?

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Response to nolidad (Reply #72)

Sat Oct 13, 2018, 07:10 AM

73. Most people would keep the money from a lost wallet?

Here's an experiment where most people didn't:

https://www.rd.com/culture/most-honest-cities-lost-wallet-test/

Granted, that is not a controlled scientific experiment but it does tend to refute your assertion.

And most people who would steal the money would still, if confronted, probably acknowledge that stealing the money is bad, don't you think?

I know it's anecdotal but to the best of my recollection I've lost my wallet three times in my life. Two out of three times it was returned to me with all of the cash by people who actively tracked me down in order to return it. The one time it was not I left it on top of a gas pump one day when I was in a hurry. I realized it about a half an hour later when I got home. Whoever found it was a "professional" thief because I immediately started calling my credit card companies to put my cards on hold and whoever stole it had already racked up about $4,200 on my credit cards buying electronics and other stuff at a local mall - all in about 30-40 minutes from the time I left it on the gas pump.

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Response to foia (Reply #73)

Sat Oct 13, 2018, 03:57 PM

77. Well when you add up the amont returned- it is less than half!

91 out of 186!

there are many honest people out there without a doubt. But you still are avoiding the questions I have asked?

If someone grew up in a culture that condoned keeping the wallet- is it wrong? Why?

How about cheating on a spouse? Is it wrong?

How about abandoning children? Is it wrong? Why?

Common sense in one culture may not be common sense in another!

So is cannibalism wrong to those who believe in it?

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Response to nolidad (Reply #77)

Sat Oct 13, 2018, 06:05 PM

79. I already stated the culture was a factor.

Cannibalism is a part of some tribal religions where the cannibal supposedly gets power from eating the soul of their victim. So yes, it's fine in that culture. That makes as much sense as the Christian notion that you have a soul that goes to heaven where it lives on for eternity and you meet up with long dead relatives and friends.

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Response to foia (Reply #79)

Sun Oct 14, 2018, 07:52 AM

80. So cannibalism is okay!

Hitler is Okay for he was well loved by most of Germany.

So to you good is subjective! But yet you call nonsensical those who know there is an immortal soul. You just contradicted yourself! By what standard do you reject the fact that people have immortal souls? The vast majority of humans believe in it.

What happens in your subjective morality if a cannibal comes to America and has a people sandwich? Are you saying geography decides morality?

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Response to nolidad (Reply #80)

Sun Oct 14, 2018, 08:42 AM

81. Let's say you were born into a lost tribe in The Amazon

where cannibalism was acceptable and you were never exposed to The Bible. Would God subject to spending eternity in Hell because of that even though you'd never been exposed to the existence of Christianity?

I am not a biblical scholar. Does The Bible even mention that cannibalism is a sin?

And the there's the 1972 airplane crash in The Andes where starving survivors resorted to cannibalism. Were those people sinning when they consumed human flesh?

And yes, "morality" is determined by culture and geography. I have traveled to very Christian parts of South America where eating dog meat is perfectly acceptable. In the US that would not be acceptable.

And morality varies not only by geography but time as well. In the early days of America, very religious Christians owned slaves whereas now that is not an acceptable practice.

Ever heard this song?



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Response to foia (Reply #81)

Sun Oct 14, 2018, 11:01 AM

82. Or you're English in a lifeboat

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Response to foia (Reply #81)

Sun Oct 14, 2018, 04:07 PM

84. Yes eating human meat is a sin.

Eating dog in America is not a moral but taste choice. Some people still do!

As for slaves- you are saying that owning slaves was morally ok in all the time periods? Many nations still practice slavery. Is that OK? I do not know of any dedicated followers of Jesus that were slave owners. There may have been religious people, but there is a difference!

As for who goes to heaven or not- Let me show you verses.

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10: 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Acts 4:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


2 Peter 3 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


God knows the heart of everyone. If one wants to know the truth- God will direct a believer to the far corners of the earth to bring them the gospel.

But apart from placing your trust in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus for the full payment of your sin debt before God- no there is no salvation.

There are many Scriptures I can show you as to why many lands have no gospel witness in them- and it is all because of sin.


but even in America there is many cultures. There is the pro life and pro choice crowd. One says it is sin, one says it is not. So is it a sin for one and not the other??

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Response to nolidad (Reply #84)

Sun Oct 14, 2018, 05:54 PM

88. So nobody got saved until Jesus came around?

That sucks if you died BC, huh?

What about all of the indians in America before settlers told them about God? God never even them gave them a chance. What a shitty deal for them.

Which verse says cannibalism is a sin?

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Response to foia (Reply #88)

Mon Oct 15, 2018, 05:54 PM

89. No!

People have been getting saved since the time of Adam!

Salvation has always been based on the death of Jesus!

Ephesians 2:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In the OT when a believer died- they went into hell in the compartment known as Abraham's Bosom/Paradise.

Once Jesus ascended into heaven- He took all those souls to heaven and closed Paradise. Now when a believer dies- they go straight to heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

As for the Indians , once again:

2 Peter 3 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God knows every heart-, If someone wants the truth- He will get someone to them!

As for cannabalism? While there is no direct prohibition- there is much implied in Scripture.

Here is a pretty decent site

https://www.gotquestions.org/cannibalism-Bible.html

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Response to foia (Reply #81)

Sun Oct 14, 2018, 04:13 PM

86. Communion is cannibalism if you take it literally.

eating the body of your god.
god-eating. Such a primitive ritual.

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Response to foia (Reply #7)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 05:38 AM

16. But what if your conscience as taught by generations of teaching

says it is okay to steal, to rape and to lie- does that make those things moral for that culture??? If not why not?

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #5)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 01:35 AM

14. Sigh. The old atheists have no basis for morality argument

Last edited Thu Oct 11, 2018, 02:58 AM - Edit history (1)

First, in this post, let’s dispense with theist morality before we proceed to morality without a Sky Daddy who will punish one horribly if one is naughty. And in the next demonstrate that morality is a necessary evolutionary feature of social animals. Christian Theist morality derives from two sources: the teachings of their holy book and fear.

Of these their book provides several sources of what Christians laughingly call morality. The Ten Commandments, Yahweh’s dos and don’ts regarding human behaviour, are a joke. The first four can be summarised as “Worship Me or Die, Bitches.” There’s a couple that are found worldwide in texts predating the Torah that are useful — no murdering (not killing because Yahweh, as the former War God sponsors killing when it suits him) and no stealing (except when Yahweh commands it) — and a few nice to haves — respect parents, no adultery or lying. Finally, there’s don’t covet your neighbour’s property, including his wife. What? No injunctions against slavery? Against rape? I guess Yahweh was too tired or had used up his ten with the crap in the first four and didn’t have anymore room on the tablets.

Then let’s take a few moral gems from Leviticus:

- Kill homosexuals
- Kill blasphemers
- Kill prostitutes

Yep, real moral!

Oh no, a theist might say, that’s the Old Testament! My morality derives from the meek and mild one of the New Testament. The same Jesus who tells us to kill children who curse their parents? The same Jesus who tells us to abandon our families in order to follow him? The same Jesus who tells us to believe in him or be punished for eternity in a lake of fire? Which brings us to the second source of Christian morality, fear.

Religion works off of fear, fear held by conscious primates who are afraid of non-being, of death. To those, religion offers the comfort of an afterlife, albeit an afterlife that the late, great Hitch characterised as being imprisoned in North Korea and singing the praises of the Dear Leader. But Christianity works off of fear extensively to promote its morality.

Obvious examples from the Old Testament are those featuring Yahweh’s punishment for not obeying his laws. Adam, whose actions threw every living creature into a world of death and punishment, despite an omniscient Yahweh knowing this would happen. The flood killing almost every living thing on earth. Sodom and Gomorrah in which Yahweh chooses to save only a man who offers his daughters up for rape and later fornicated with them.

However, despite these and other examples from the Old Testament, those used car salesmen who cobbled together the New Testament made the OT guys look like amateurs. Don’t believe in Junior and you are punished by fire for eternity. Yahweh and his two sidekicks will burn your skin off every day and cause it to regenerate every night. Like Prometheus, who also stole the knowledge of the gods, those who do not believe in Junior will be in agony for all time, even those who never had the chance to even hear of him.

While theists often argue that atheists can have no morality — a claim demonstratably false — Christian morality derives from two sources: a 2000+ year old book composed by some of the most ignorant savages of their day from which Christians pick what suits them and the fear in their hearts of eternal damnation. Hardly a good basis upon which to live one’s life.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #14)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 05:49 AM

17. Once again our atheist colleague

Missed the entire point of the Mosaic Law!

Missed the Entire point of Jesus calling disciples.

Missed the entire point of the NT "used car salesman"

What our poor, pitiable benighted atheist colleague appears to be is angry at God that He cannot put God in his box and control Him as a marionette.

God is loving- but His first and highest attribute is His holiness!

And if one cannot be wooed back to God by His love- then we hope they will turn back to God by being warned of the eternal consequences of not accepting the free forgiveness God offers.

And my very benighted colleague also does not realize- We followers of Jesus do not serve Him out of fear of losing our salvation and being damned forever- His death and our trust in it has forever removed that off the table, we serve Him in our weak and faulty way (we are still humans after all) because we love Him and know He will never reject us!

Athiests can have morals! However they have no absolute authority for their morals! They are naturalists and yet deny7 how most of nature lives! Kill or be killed. Polygamy, adultery, theft, rape are the norms in nature.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #17)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 07:38 AM

27. I like this part...

"Polygamy, adultery, theft, rape are the norms in nature."

As they are among the believers as well...the news regularly displays the morality of believers for all to see.

I don't speak for any atheists or anyone but myself, I don't represent any common atheist belief my observations are quite simply my own.

From what I see Heinlein was right when he said human labels like believer, conservative, liberal, communist, etc...are all meaningless because humanity divides quite unevenly into two basic groups. The first group is the largest group and those who occupy this group are largely determined to control the lives of others, believing they do so with the best of intentions under the highest of ideals...the second group has no such desire and is comprised of surly curmudgeons who lack altruism and trust no one, but that second group makes far better neighbors.

There's a lot of liberal atheists who want to control my life as much as my christian friends who are always trying to save me...

In the end I realize no one actually understands one simple reality of actual freedom, whatever you do on your property that doesn't affect me or my property should be none of my business. Consequently I don't care if you get high, sleep with a member of the same sex the opposite sex some combination thereof, like to collect rainwater, like to shoot firearms, like to drive your four wheeler all over your property. I only concern myself with your actions when you try to harm me, or damage my property.

If more people thought like that and decided the best course of action was to protect the individual from the majority this nation would be far more free and far less constraining as it is now.

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Response to nolens volens (Reply #27)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 01:47 PM

30. Quoting libertarian scripture is not an argument

"In the end I realize no one actually understands one simple reality of actual freedom, whatever you do on your property that doesn't affect me or my property should be none of my business. Consequently I don't care if you get high, sleep with a member of the same sex the opposite sex some combination thereof, like to collect rainwater, like to shoot firearms, like to drive your four wheeler all over your property. I only concern myself with your actions when you try to harm me, or damage my property. "

Fine. That does not create a moral framework. It merely says that your cost/benefit analysis results in "leave me the hell alone." That is certainly OK but it bestows no morality. There is a VERY SPECIFIC REASON the preamble to the Constitution says (paraphrasing) "all men are ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR with rights." That clearly states men (and women of course) include a spark of divinity that make them special.

Absent that spark, endowed by God, men are just really clever animals. And the only rule that is "moral" is "survival of the fittest."

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #30)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 02:18 PM

35. That same

constitution also goes to great lengths to never mention any god or creator after that preamble, that was no accident. Whatever creator you choose was good enough for the constitution, whether it was gaia the earth goddess or Jesus's dad made no difference to the framers.

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Response to nolens volens (Reply #35)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 02:26 PM

37. "constitution also goes to great lengths to never mention any god or creator after that preamble"

It does more than MENTION it -- it establishes the Creator as the BASIS for rights.

It says: "here is from whence we accrue our rights -- now we will go into some detail on how those rights are expressed."

No need for further discussion about a creator. That is why we do not have Sharia Law.

I repeat to you what I told C/W: If we have no spark of divinity we are mere machines each acting in our self-interest with NO reason to ever act in a manner that does not please ourselves.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #37)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 02:56 PM

44. You are certainly welcome to see it how you

like, that's the beauty of it...but they don't identify which Creator for a very good reason...we don't have Sharia law because our law is based primarily on old English law because that's what they had. They simply added far more protections for the individual from the majority.

At least that was the original theory. In today's America our fellow Americans are quite happy to think they live in a majority rules and dictates society....

You can choose the Creator you like. That was done on purpose.

If you need a spark of divinity, that's your opinion and that's your need.

Some of us are able to serve our nation, serve our community, and provide for our families without ever needing that spark...

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Response to nolens volens (Reply #44)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 03:03 PM

47. "Some of us are able to serve our nation, serve our community, and provide for our families without

that spark."

Because it suits your purpose.

No other reason.

Your morality is merely a utility to be turned off or on at your whim.

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Response to nolens volens (Reply #27)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 04:08 PM

61. Yep we followers of Jesus are just as capable of doing that stuff as unbelievers are.

We still have a human nature to contend with daily! But the big difference is that we recognize them as sin and confess them when we fail and receive forgiveness! We do not rejoice and apporve them as so many unbelievers do!

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #14)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 07:04 AM

22. I like how he tries to usurp

Our phrases. .
Loons
Colleagues.. etc..
Poor guy has never had an original thought in his life.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #14)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 01:51 PM

31. See response 30 below.

In a nutshell, you are just an amoral animal, going along to get along.

Your humanity is meaningless as it merely points to an evolved brain.

Quoting the Bible out of context helps your case not at all. It just means you are as illiterate theologically as the OP is scientifically.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #31)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 02:06 PM

33. Sorry I didn't quote any libertarian scripture

I simply quoted and referenced Biblical scripture. While I do completely agree with the poster you’re responding to, it has no relevance to my post.

As to the founding fathers, well that’s nice. You cite fallible humans instructing us on the supernatural about which they can know nothing. After all, to paraphrase our Creationist OP, “were they there?” Jefferson wrote his own Bible without the miracles. Paine was an avowed Atheist. Franklin was at best a deist. What exactly do the founding fathers have to do with this discussion again?

The point of my post is that if one gets their morality from the Bible, that is a very, very poor source. The Bible condones killing of non-believers, rape, slavery, killing homosexuals, abandoning one’s parents, condemning souls to eternal damnation even if they never had a chance to learn of Junior, etc. A pretty shitty source for morality.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #33)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 02:22 PM

36. There is not a single word of Biblical Scripture in our founding documents

Your attempt at making that argument fails on its face.

The Bible is a complex document that combines both theology and history. Like many who have not actually read it, you conflate the New and Old Testaments.

Your eschewment of the liturgical Bible does not change the moral argument I have made.

If we are going to hew to a moral code, we need to have a baseline. That baseline needs to have a basis for existing. "Rights" do not appear out of nowhere. The founders were quite specific in stating where these rights come from.

You have not really successfully challenged my thesis: Atheists act exclusively out of self-interest since, by definition, atheists are mere animals. Just clever ones. Absent divinity the human life is nothing more than a tractor or a squirrel.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #36)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 02:32 PM

39. Sorry, I was not making the argument that the founding fathers based the constitution

on Biblical scriptures. In fact, I was making the opposite argument (citations of Jefferson, Franklin, Paine). The only point I was making about the founding fathers was that they had no more knowledge of a “creator” than you or me.

You have attempted to make the argument that morality is derived from a supernatural being. You have also referenced the Christian supernatural being in that context. My point is that any morality that might be derived from a genocidal maniac bully as defected in the Bible is worst than useless. That is the negative argument I’ve made to date.

As of yet I have not made a positive argument for morality derived from naturalism. I hope to be able to do that tomorrow morning.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #39)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 03:01 PM

45. It is debatable on what old TJ's spiritual beliefs were

He kept them VERY close to his chest, but he and the other founders understood -- AND INSTANTIATED -- that rights HAD to come from a Creator (and yes, I take notice they did NOT say "God"). Otherwise they are merely bootstrapped and created from nothing.

It isn't my call, but the existence of God (and Satan) make more sense than the hardy-har-har- Dawkinsist "sky angel" epithet.

You can certainly ATTEMPT to mount a "naturalistic" argument for per se morality but I can already tell you it will fails since every atheists' answer to "to whom do you answer morally" is always "Me."

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #45)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 03:13 PM

51. Why do you think Jefferson wrote his own Bible without the supernatural crap?

Do you deny that Paine was an atheist? Franklin a deist? As much as you’d like to believe that the FF believed in a supernatural creator, you fail.

However, the point is moot. They were human just like you and me. They had no more special knowledge about the supernatural than you or I.

As to the existence of God (or Satan) you can produce no tangible evidence outside of the writings of primitives.

Naturalistic arguments regarding morality are built on the opposite of “me.” They are built upon innate social group behaviour that provides survival potential in nature as well as utilitarian arguments regarding urban society. Spiritual arguments are built on ME as it all has to do with personal faith and belief in the supernatural as well as fear of death.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #51)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 03:20 PM

55. Thanks for making my point

"Naturalistic arguments regarding morality are built on the opposite of “me.” They are built upon innate social group behaviour that provides survival potential in nature as well as utilitarian arguments regarding urban society."

Yep -- love the Canuk spelling BTW (after working in Toronto for a year I still say "prow-cess"). That enforces EXACTLY what I said. Naturalistic morality can ONLY be utilitarian. Under Naturalism, one is NOT good because goodness provides spiritual soul-enhancement. One is good to either avoid punishment or to receive recognition (internal or external) that creates a chemical reaction in the brain that triggers some measure of pleasure.

Which sort of leads us back to where I started.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #55)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 03:38 PM

57. Not sure what the Canuck reference is all about

I’m an American who has lived in London for the last nine years. If the reference is to the spelling of ‘behaviour,’ well I use a computer set to U.K. English. Regardless, after this time, I spell it that way. There was a guy you might remember on the Conservative sites by the name of Scott who once made fun of some British English phrase or spelling I used. My response was to come to London and I’ll make sure you always look left first when crossing the street.

As I noted there are two arguments for human morality without supernatural decree. One is utilitarian and the other is the innate evolutionary benefit of group behaviour. Hopefully, I’ll have the time to discuss in more detail tomorrow.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #57)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 04:28 PM

58. The superfluous "u" gave u away (see what I did there?) Canada still plays cricket so...

>>As I noted there are two arguments for human morality without supernatural decree. One is utilitarian and the other is the innate evolutionary benefit of group behaviour. Hopefully, I’ll have the time to discuss in more detail tomorrow.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #33)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 02:29 PM

38. I forgot to address your "libertarian scripture" remark

Indeed you did quote libertarian scripture. The libertarian/atheist Bible may not be written down but its scripture is crystal clear and rather unyielding.

Your belief system is well known and if not instantiated per se is certainly prosaic. It is not "wrong," mind you -- it is merely amoral.


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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #38)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 02:36 PM

40. Your belief system is well known and if not instantiated per se is certainly prosaic

If I were to say what your belief system “certainly is” I would get a hide. So I’ll pass.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #40)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 03:11 PM

49. FWIIW I *never* report and I *never* hide

Nor do I *ignore*

I feel all those things are childish and I suspect you feel the same.

I do have sort of a rule which I have never had to use that if there is a specific physical threat I might hide. Thank God (or gaia or whatever deity) I have not seen that on this board.



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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #49)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 03:14 PM

53. Unfortunately, anyone could alert as a personal attack

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #40)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 04:23 PM

65. Wer forget you are the expert as to who and who is not wise over the last 6,000 years!

And that you have infinite knowledge and can discern without context what is written by those used car salesmen.

Maybe we should bow down and worship you!!!!

Nah-- I will stick with the real Triune God!

Yes His rules are hard against the sin nature- but that is because it is a sin nature and destroys people!

You don't like it? Tough! He gets to make the rules!

And my benighted foe, just remember this one day you will bow before HIm!

If you do it willingly in this life- you can know the freedom and joy and forgiveness we who follow HIm know, and if not willingly- then you will be forced to bow!

Phil. 2: 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #33)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 04:13 PM

63. If you learned to read the Bible in context, you wouldn't sound so foolish!

But I wwill not apologize for god and His dealings with Israel and the laws He gave to Israel alone!

Nor will I apologize for what Jesus has done and what He commanded, for what He did command does not look at all like what you falsely accused the Words of God of!

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #33)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 04:14 PM

64. No we we were not there!

But God was there and He instructed people to write down what He did before we got there!

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #5)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 07:27 AM

26. How were you insulted?

Because of an image that suggests there is no god?

I didn't call the poster any names, all I said is that some of us believe we'd prefer no gods and no masters.

Too many of my fellow Americans seem to love their government overlords and the resulting lack of virtually all of their personal liberty and freedom.

I prefer a different path, from what I see it's far too easy to insult a believer. All it takes is a simple question or comment and their tender sensibilities are unable to bear the offense. I should be happy that at least christians, unlike their muslim brothers, don't routinely kill people they disagree with...they just whine a lot about non-existent wars on christians and christmas.

Christians have been so accustomed to having everything their way in this nation that simple questions feel like an attack. The difference of course is no atheists are looking to burn you at the cross over a difference of opinion. Or not serve you a cake. Or tell you how to behave in your own home.

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Response to nolens volens (Reply #26)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 01:30 PM

28. Straw men arguments help your case not at all. nt

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #28)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 02:16 PM

34. It doesn't need any help, l'm not making any case for invisible beings....NT

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Response to foia (Reply #1)

Wed Oct 10, 2018, 06:05 PM

6. Yes, but

what about the Kardashian caboose? That's all I can see when I look at them.

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Response to HerasHeaddress (Reply #6)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 01:53 PM

32. Not sure what that means in this context but she looks like a circus freak to me

But thanks for a little levity.

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Response to foia (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 01:57 AM

15. The OP, whose brand of Christianity (YEC) is laughed at by all rational people, is desperately

attempting to be “one of the boys” by associating himself and more importantly his beliefs with the predominate Conservative faction here. His attempts clearly fail with me. I stated several times here that I thought the accusations against Kavanaugh were bogus and that he should be confirmed. Yet, I laugh at and will continue to laugh at Young Earth Creationists.

WARNING: Vomiting scene from Exorcist (or derivative movie) included

https://m.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #15)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 05:51 AM

18. Well I am glad that what you call rational people laugh at me!

If they respected me, given their blindness and deep seated apathy and/or animosity to God, I would have to look in the mirror and wonder what is so very wrong with me!

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #15)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 06:58 AM

21. He found out with his 9/11 threads

That nobody believes anything he says about anything.
Other than copypasta with bible quotes.

Trying to suck in conservatives to his side by equating politics with his ridiculous beliefs is gonna be a hilarious train wreck to watch.

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #21)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 07:11 AM

24. Yeah, he got laughed out of those. But notice his sleight of hand

Nowhere did I say people were laughing at him. I quite clearly said that they were laughing at his religious beliefs. But he seems to continually want to make it personal. Moreover, he wants to portray it as atheists who are doing the laughing. But, he ignores the majority of Christians who do accept evolution and thereby deep time. As I pointed out in a thread about Ken Ham recently, old Ken knows that this larger group is his real opponents, not atheists.

However, it will be fun to see who he drags into his silliness by equating politics and religion. I have at least three good guesses, but we’ll see.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #24)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 07:21 AM

25. He'll never get it.

I can only imagine how many times he mentions god in his daily routine.
Sitting home annoying people, annoying people at work.
Atheism never comes up in my daily routine.
People know I'm an atheist, but that's about it.

Can't imagine dealing with someone like him on a daily basis.

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #25)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 02:38 PM

41. I think you can see my frustration...

Trying to keep a clear delineation between YEC and Conservatism feels at times like that guy in the Klingon Kayless story.

They water down our entire set of arguments since it is an easy pin to pull: "yes, but you think the Earth is 6,00 years old so everything you say is suspect."

That is why I have sort of divine edict to get on these threads and do that science stuff. I lived through the Crevo wars at FR -- in fact I think I am the only pro-science survivor. There is not a single CRidder arg that can be made that I have not heard and can easily dispatch.

In this case it has been easier since the OP doesn't even know basic science.

I do arrogate to myself the bifurcation of this thread: Atheism/morality vs. YEC/science.

I think I will drop the former as it serves no purpose and my point is IMHO quite clear.

I just wish I knew if it is irritating or interesting.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #41)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 03:02 PM

46. It's all very interesting

And enjoyable to read, even if we do not see the world from the same vantage point.

I appreciate your time and responses in any event, and am always open to disagreement.

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Response to nolens volens (Reply #46)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 03:06 PM

48. Please forgive my occasional foray into snarkdom

But FWIIW I really do believe what I say but I do find it a good thing you chose kindness as a path.

Again not my call to judge but I have made it pretty clear (I hope) what I think the basis of morality is and we don't want to go all "Caddyshack" on that gopher again, do we?

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #48)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 03:11 PM

50. Hahahaha

I served in the infantry for two different nations...a little snarkdom or even the occasional drop into something darker won't offend my sensibilities.

These days finding someone willing to take you to task without taking your responses personally is a rare find and thoroughly enjoyable on my end. I get your point exactly and respect your views.

We will most likely agree to disagree, but in the end the larger lesson is where are the areas of commonality politically that allow us to make a better nation while keeping the individuals as free as possible?

I don't find it necessary to agree with people on every point in order to work with them in the areas we both find pertinent to our own world view.

Thanks for some food for thought today, it was well received and much enjoyed.

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Response to nolens volens (Reply #50)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 03:14 PM

52. I also don't do emojies so here is a *thumbs up*

Best I can do text-based (I started on USENET so you probably understand what I mean)

UUENCODE/UUDECODE *sigh* slower than molasses but worked for scanned Playboy centerfolds.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #52)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 03:16 PM

54. hahahah

yep a lot of my fellow nerds made high speed internet for transmitting more porn a priority....

I suspect our current high speeds owe a lot to those first few text based downloads...

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #41)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 03:55 AM

59. All the Christians I know

Believe in evolution.
YEC want to drag science and education back to the dark ages.

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Response to foia (Reply #1)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 05:55 AM

19. Foia, the scientific holes in evolution are wide enough

to drive a division of tanks through side by side!

Do you really believe that nothing exploded (the big bang) and over time created everything?

Omnipotent god speaking all things into existence is silly to you

Nothingness for eternity8 past all of a sudden exploding and out of nothing comes everything makes sense?????

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Response to nolidad (Reply #19)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 06:03 AM

20. What happens when a tiny little atom explodes?

It creates a hell of a lot of entropy. And that's not a theory. Ask the Japanese.

By the way, who/what created God? An omniscient being that can read everybody's minds? How likely is that?

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Response to foia (Reply #20)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 03:22 PM

56. I tried to find that classic clip of the Simpsons where Bart shakes a beer and the house goes FOOOM!

My Google-fu seems not so strong today.

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Response to foia (Reply #20)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 04:28 PM

66. Yes! Now think of that!

An explosion releases energy- it decreases kinetic energy and increased entropic energy!

But thast atom cannot create anything greater than itself as the hypothesis of the BBT goes! Remember they said everything started from nothing. then nothing exploded! what happens when nothing explodes?

Also you need to have the energy present in order for an atom to explode- plus you need the atom!

Almost everything about cosmic evolution is based on unverifiable mathematics!

Everything about Darwinian evolution goes against what is testable verifiable science!

That is why folks like SS666 and mr. CW will not engage in an honest debate because they know they would lose a scientific debaTE.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #66)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 04:38 PM

68. We have told you many times how wrong you are.

Don't fucking mention me when you have me on ignore.

You're fucking dumbed down version of the big bang theory is fucking ridiculous. You think that's all it is, because you don't know any better and you never will. Ever.

It is impossible to have an honest debate with someone who rejects all evidence and provides absolutely none for his side. Which is exactly what you do. You provide no evidence other than your pet hangups and other dumb shit that has been explained to you. You ask for ridiculous things like a half-man, half-ape.. but we are apes. You refuse to see that asking for an ape-man is impossible. Then you whine when you don't get the answer you want or try to claim some lame childish victory. A grown fucking man in his 60s, can't figure out basic shit.
You brag a 163 IQ, but can't even understand basic concepts, logic and mathematics.
You fail everytime. Every. fucking. time.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #19)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 01:36 PM

29. "the scientific holes in evolution are wide enough to drive a division of tanks through"

You are factually incorrect.

If you wish to speak about science you must both understand science AND be conversant in its terminology.

You have proven time and time again you are both ignorant in science AND scientific terminology.


Ex:

"Nothingness for eternity8 past all of a sudden exploding and out of nothing comes everything makes sense?????"

TToE posits no such thing. You conflate abiogenesis and TToE. And that is a simple example of them many inaccuracies you post on these threads. Using your flawed definition the red shift does not exist and the Earth is only 6,000 years old.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #29)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 04:36 PM

67. Well I did not know you are the arbiter of who is educated in science and who is not!

I am factually correct. Your dodge about terminology, is just that- a dodge!

Darwinian Evolution hypothesis is an untestable, unverifiable, unobservable hypothesis.

All of verified science speaks against evolution.

I may confuse terms at times, but too bad!

Cosmic Evolution in its latest iteration accepted by consensus- says that prior to the Bib Bang- there was absolutely nothing! Then that absolutely nothing had a spicy Mexican dinner, and blew a galactic fart!

It blew chunks and they have been expanding since! Some of those chunks supposedly coalesced into little balls, that got bigger and bigger! Some became stars and some became planets.

Then on this planet some of that stuff formed a goo! and somehow in some way that goo became organic, then alive! then through a massive series of random, undirected, unplanned genetic errors, it went from goo to you by way of the zoo!

Now I can post all the fancy science terms- but this is the whole story in a colloquial nutshell! So if your high priests of evolutionary belief are correct- Everything came from nothing!!

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Response to nolidad (Reply #67)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 04:47 PM

71. You've had the difference between a scientific theory and a hypothesis

explained to you dozens of times by several people.

You've provided definitions yourself, that are true for what a scientific theory is and you still DO NOT UNDERSTAND what it is. You argue against your own fucking definition.
It's too bad you'll never realize it, it really is. So locked in a frame of mind that you can't even grasp thinking in a different way or being proven wrong, ever.
It's sad that you'll never know the truth. Even for one second.

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Response to nolidad (Original post)

Wed Oct 10, 2018, 05:04 PM

2. hahahahaha

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Response to nolidad (Original post)

Wed Oct 10, 2018, 05:35 PM

4. You err in your very first sentence

Do not conflate understanding science and atheism.

And there is more evidence for TToE than arguably all the other sciences. Literally BILLIONS of data and artifacts.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #4)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 07:06 AM

23. I predict a scales to feathers

Argument coming very soon..

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #23)

Thu Oct 11, 2018, 02:42 PM

42. How about the "tornado in a junkyard to 747" ahem -- "argument?"

It's an oldie but a goodie.

Sometimes you have to stick to the classics, ya know.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #42)

Sat Oct 13, 2018, 08:11 AM

75. I was close. He used limbs to wings, not scales to feathers this time.

Wings are limbs, but that type of reasoning is lost on him.

I think he used the 747 one before too. he's been through them all over and over and over again.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #4)

Fri Oct 12, 2018, 04:45 PM

70. Wrong again !

The belief in Evolution is data compiled by believers in Evolution based on their worldview and biased interpretation of fossils! There is more opinion on evolution- not physical evidence!

Every major transition in evolution is still missing the necessary physical structures!

Fins to limbs and limbs to wings!

I had several threads where I challenged people to show the proof of what evolutionists declare as fact that velociraptors evolved into birds. All I go is insults and stupidity for replies!

Evolution is not science like Creationism is not science! They are both models of origins! Neither can be tested, repeated or observed so fall outside of science!

Maybe you can provide some of this incontrovertible data instead of ad-homs and straw men to support evolution!

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Response to nolidad (Reply #70)

Sat Oct 13, 2018, 07:11 AM

74. bullshit. You refuse to accept it.

You rely on the inability to prove impossible shit and you think that proves something for you. It doesn't.
You demand every fucking single transition right down to the fucking DNA to prove the theory of evolution to you.
You only need on old fucking book written by idiots to prove the entirety of existence to you.
You can't see the problem there. Your brain has been wired by someone to be unable to see things the way they are if they contradict your ridiculous literal belief in the bible. It's gone now man, it's too late for you.

When you say studying evolution doesn't count as a science, it shows just how fucking gone you are.
How easily duped you've been by the loons.
In your mind making those statements like, 'evolution falls outside of science', lets you always break it down to it's core as false. Nothing can convince you now because studying evolution isn't science anyway, Genesis is just as valid. Illogical.
You could be shown every generation of transitions all the way for a million years and you'd still demand something in between, you'd still say they were all alive at the same time or that they were deformed in some way. I know you'd say that because you've shown that you do not know how any of it works and you've repeatedly used those excuses.

"Fins to limbs and limbs to wings! "
lmao




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Response to nolidad (Reply #70)

Sat Oct 13, 2018, 03:25 PM

76. Again, you must use science terms if you wish to have scientific discussion

As for the mechnics of TToE is is environmentally-guided stochastism. We see it in viruses and we see it in animals (flies in NY subways are unable to breed with flies in the outside. They evolved differently in a short period of time, but many cycles of generations.

We have literally billions of internally, scientifically consistent artifacts which prove TToE.

There are literally ZERO data artifacts that support Creationism.

It is not ad hominem when I tell you YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO SPEAK ON THE SUBJECT. You have neither the knowledge nor the training. You do not understand the science.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #76)

Sat Oct 13, 2018, 04:21 PM

78. Well I have training, what is your expertise?

What degrees do you bring ot this discussion!

Once again just another dodge. If I am so unqualified then you should be able to dispose of me real quick now shouldn't you???

So then anything you do not have a degree in shall we say you are not qualified to speak in?

YOu : "As for the mechnics of TToE is is environmentally-guided stochastism!"

guided randomness? Really???

The environment does not have the ability to control or order or even "suggest" how a creature needs to mutate to survive! Mutations are not directed by environment, nor natural selection. Natural selection just keeps those populations that are more robust! And you think you are more qualified and come up with answers like this???

According to the hypothesis of evolution- and the consensus of its believers- mutations are the driving force of evolution and natural selection just preserves those mutations that are best able to survive!

Your example of the flies are not Darwinian Evolution but an example of speciation! And if there was a intense study done, I am willing ot bet that the reason the subway flies cannot mate with outdoor flies is that the toxic environment they live in has hampered there ability to reproduce! This is evolution in reverse- flies less reproducible.

YOu : "We have literally billions of internally, scientifically consistent artifacts which prove TToE".

Ok here's your chance to show just one of them billions!

Evolutionists have declared that velociraptors evolved into birds is a settled FACT!!!!

Ok so show scales to feathers!
or Jaw to beak
or limbs to wings!

Pick one and show the facts! And you win!!!!!

As for 0 "data artifacts" you are correct Creationist shave zero data errors! (that is the definition of a data artifact unless you are using a different one!)

But as for evidence- we have all of creation!

Every law of science contradicts evolution both cosmic and organic!
We have never seen anything beyond simple speciation- IOW a mouse may have experienced changes- but it still is a mouse. Same with the fruit fly and the common fly in NYC subways!

Genetics have shown and demonstrated that evolution cannot occur! over 99.9% of mutations fall on the harmful side (some near benign) in creatures. So not only do you have less than 10 mutations that may be beneficial- they have to survive and over whelm the massive number of harmful mutations. Then there is genetic load! When too many mutations occur in a species genome- it loses vibrancy!

We need quadrillions X quadrillions of "beneficial" mutations to get from goo to you and yet we cannot find one example of a real beneficial mutation! By this we mean a rewrite of the genetic code of a creature that adding greater complexity and/or new information to the genome! about a half dozen have tired here- you are welcome to show one beneficial mutation if you can! It should be very very easy for you- you have billions of scientifically consisten artifacts which prove TTOE according t you!

Also what do you mean by artifact? I want ot make sure we are speaking the same thing! because the standard scientific definition is in paleontology and refers to man made objects!




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Response to nolidad (Reply #78)

Sun Oct 14, 2018, 12:41 PM

83. I have a lot more training than you do -- you continue to use words/concepts that show ignorance

Yes, I am going to blow you off. You just keep repeating AIG.

I don't have the time nor the inclination to teach you science. Perhaps others have more patience.

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Response to freedumb2003 (Reply #83)

Sun Oct 14, 2018, 04:11 PM

85. So in other words

You are copping out and using lame excuses to refuse to engage!

What is your training for the record- or is that like Obama's college records- sealed and kept a deep dark secret???

Or are you another typical blowhard here who talks big- but when it comes time to show your claims- you just find whatever dodge you can to slink away??? I have had to deal with many of your kind- ad-homs and straw men- but no science.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #85)

Sun Oct 14, 2018, 04:15 PM

87. You know nothing of how science works or why.

you've convinced yourself you do, maybe others humor you so they don't offend you and it reinforces that for you. Either way, you just will never understand science. ever.

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Response to nolidad (Original post)

Thu Nov 8, 2018, 06:07 PM

90. Im sorry - what evidence is there of creation? Thats laughable.

On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence for evolution. We have the ability to look at fossils over time, for example. Animals have similar biological traits as their evolutionary ancestors.


Here is a basic overview if you’re actually interested: https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology/her/evolution-and-natural-selection/a/lines-of-evidence-for-evolution

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Response to EtherealBridge (Reply #90)

Fri Nov 9, 2018, 02:51 AM

91. Our Creationist colleague is on holiday

However, when he returns he will inform you that he has spent a brazillian years studying evolution, in which he includes all sciences of “deep time” — the Big Bang, Stellar and Planetary Lifecycles, Abiogenesis, and Organic Evolution — ala Kent Hovind. He will also tell you he was once an evil “evolutionist” (about 44 years ago, I believe). So don’t think about arguing with him as he has the forces of AiG and ICR to cover his back.

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #91)

Fri Nov 9, 2018, 08:37 AM

92. Don't forget his mensa measured 162 IQ.

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Response to SatansSon666 (Reply #92)

Fri Nov 9, 2018, 08:50 AM

93. And his extensive research into the truth behind 9/11



An interesting question. How many YECers are also 9/11 Truthers? Birthers?

Is there a gullibility factor at play here?

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Response to Cold Warrior (Reply #93)

Fri Nov 9, 2018, 08:56 AM

94. If Mensa measured gullibility

They'd have his picture right on their homepage.

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