Beliefs

Sun May 18, 2014, 08:15 AM

Matthew 12:40 a Common Idiom?

Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a common Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone (who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" means the tomb) knows of any writing that shows that a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights was ever used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?

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Arrow 56 replies Author Time Post
Reply Matthew 12:40 a Common Idiom? (Original post)
rstrats May 2014 OP
Widestance May 2014 #1
USNRET1988 Jan 2016 #44
Strange Luck May 2014 #2
rstrats May 2014 #5
Strange Luck May 2014 #6
rstrats May 2014 #3
rstrats May 2014 #4
rstrats Jun 2014 #7
nolidad Jun 2014 #8
rstrats Jun 2014 #9
nolidad Jun 2014 #10
rstrats Jun 2014 #11
rstrats Mar 2015 #32
rstrats Jul 2015 #41
rstrats Mar 2015 #33
question Jun 2014 #12
rstrats Jun 2014 #13
question Jun 2014 #14
rstrats Jun 2014 #15
rstrats Jul 2014 #16
rstrats Aug 2014 #17
rstrats Oct 2014 #18
question Oct 2014 #19
rstrats Oct 2014 #20
question Oct 2014 #21
rstrats Oct 2014 #22
rstrats Nov 2014 #23
rstrats Dec 2014 #27
nolidad Nov 2014 #24
rstrats Nov 2014 #25
rstrats Nov 2014 #26
Satan Mar 2015 #34
rstrats Mar 2015 #35
Satan Mar 2015 #36
rstrats Dec 2014 #28
rstrats Jan 2015 #29
rstrats Feb 2015 #30
rstrats Feb 2015 #31
rstrats Apr 2015 #37
rstrats May 2015 #38
rstrats Jun 2015 #39
rstrats Jul 2015 #40
rstrats Sep 2015 #42
rstrats Jan 2016 #43
rstrats Mar 2016 #45
rstrats Jul 2017 #46
_eek Jul 2017 #47
rstrats Jul 2017 #48
_eek Jul 2017 #49
rstrats Aug 2017 #50
rstrats Nov 2017 #52
rstrats Jan 2018 #53
rstrats Jun 2018 #54
SlayerNut Aug 2017 #51
rstrats Jul 2018 #55
rstrats Nov 2018 #56

Response to rstrats (Original post)

Sun May 18, 2014, 11:37 AM

1. I thought I'd head every rationalization before

It's funny that the same people who argue tooth and nail that the Bible is literally true can then argue that anything obviously logically inconsistent was meant to be taken figuratively.

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Response to Widestance (Reply #1)


Response to rstrats (Original post)

Sun May 18, 2014, 12:09 PM

2. This may answer that

https://archive.org/details/jstor-3135497

archive.org is a treasure trove of research papers and books (over 5 million, all free). Note this is a short article at Jstor (and if you have not heard of it you missed a big story in the news about it).

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Response to Strange Luck (Reply #2)

Tue May 27, 2014, 08:16 AM

5. Idiom

Strange Luck,

re: "This may answer that https://archive.org/details/jstor-3135497 "

I'm afraid I don't find where your link provides any writing that shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights being used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights. What do you have in mind?

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Response to rstrats (Reply #5)

Tue May 27, 2014, 08:24 AM

6. To find the answer

Searching through books by people who also wrestled with the question.

That was just one small jstor article. There are full books on theology there to download/read which cross reference many more such books.

The 1800's and early 1900's were a booming time for religious research into the bible (and other religious works) and you can find many such commentaries at the archive.org link.

Just hoping to point you in the right direction

One of my favorite books there is:
https://archive.org/details/handwritingofgod00randuoft

A real treat and I used to own an original copy. If someone isn't hooked by the end of the first chapter I would be surprised.

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Response to rstrats (Original post)

Sun May 18, 2014, 09:08 PM

3. Idiom

Someone new looking in may know of some writing.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #3)

Wed May 21, 2014, 02:29 PM

4. Or maybe not.

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Response to rstrats (Original post)

Sat Jun 14, 2014, 09:29 AM

7. Idiom

Apparently there is no one on this site that is a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate, and who tries to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is a common Jewish idiom.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #7)

Tue Jun 17, 2014, 07:18 AM

8. Just joined the site.

Just joined the site and I am a hard core 6th day crucifixionist. He was killed on the day before Sabbath as Scriptures say which is definitely Friday.

Two works that delve into the 3 days, on the third day conundrum and that show it was a common "idiom" in the times of Jesus are

Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Eddersheim

and

The Life of Messiah from a Jewish Perspective (DVD Series) by Arnold Fruchtenbaum

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Response to nolidad (Reply #8)

Sun Jun 22, 2014, 08:55 AM

9. Commom Jewish Idiom?

nolidad,

re: "Two works that delve into the 3 days, on the third day conundrum and that show it was a common 'idiom' in the times of Jesus are Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Eddersheim and The Life of Messiah from a Jewish Perspective (DVD Series) by Arnold Fruchtenbaum"

Do you know for a fact that those two works provide actual writing from the first century or before which shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights?

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Response to rstrats (Reply #9)

Sun Jun 22, 2014, 05:41 PM

10. can't say

Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

The DVD series comments on it without actual sites.

Eddersheims book might, but at 1500 pages give or take I cant be sure.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 08:16 AM

11. common idiom?

nolidad,

re: "Eddersheims book might, but at 1500 pages give or take I cant be sure."


OK, perhaps someone else will know of some writing.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #8)

Mon Mar 9, 2015, 05:06 PM

32. Day of crucifixion?

nolidad,

re: " He was killed on the day before Sabbath as Scriptures say which is definitely Friday."

If by "Friday" you mean the 6th day of the week, what is there in scripture that makes it absolutely, positively, no-question-about-it necessary to have the crucifixion take place on the 6th day of the week?

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Response to rstrats (Reply #32)

Fri Jul 10, 2015, 05:45 AM

41. Day of Crucifixion

nolidad,

You have a question directed to you in post #32.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #8)

Fri Mar 20, 2015, 08:39 AM

33. To nolidad

You have a question directed to you in post #32.

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Response to rstrats (Original post)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 01:42 PM

12. In the first century time was calculated differently, not just years but days

For example the bible says Jesus was crucified "at the third hour", & most scholars interpret that to mean about 9am assuming a 6am sunrise. So forgive my ignorance (I'm certainly no scholar) but any calculations now would require "assumptions" about the writings then EVEN if you found the phrases you're looking for, no?

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Response to question (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 05:30 PM

13. Assumptions?

question,

re: " ...any calculations now would require 'assumptions' about the writings then EVEN if you found the phrases you're looking for, no?"


Night time is night time, and day time is day time. Exactly what assumptions are required?

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Response to rstrats (Reply #13)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 07:57 PM

14. That a day includes all daylight hours plus all night hours for 24 hours, for example

Did they calculate that way? I doubt it. Is that your basic premise? If so, then I'm afraid I don't understand what type of phrase you're looking for.

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Response to question (Reply #14)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 09:43 AM

15. Matthew 12:40 an Idiom?

question,

re: "That a day includes all daylight hours plus all night hours for 24 hours...Is that your basic premise?"

No.



re: "...I'm afraid I don't understand what type of phrase you're looking for."

Because of the crazy threading format in this forum, you may have missed my request in the OP. I'm looking for any writing from the first century or before which shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights when it absolutely couldn't have included at least parts of each one of the specific number of days and at least parts of each one of the specific number of nights.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #15)

Tue Jul 15, 2014, 06:39 AM

16. Common Idiom?

Someone new looking in may know of some writing.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #16)

Mon Aug 18, 2014, 01:30 PM

17. Matthew 12:40 an idiom?

Perhaps someone new looking in who is a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate, and who thinks that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language may know of some writing.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #17)

Fri Oct 3, 2014, 06:17 AM

18. Matthew 12:40 an idiom?

I should also add: "...and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb".

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Response to rstrats (Reply #15)

Fri Oct 3, 2014, 04:44 PM

19. I still have no idea of what your point is or what you're banging on about...

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Response to question (Reply #19)

Sat Oct 4, 2014, 07:57 AM

20. Response to question -

question,

re: "I still have no idea of what your point is or what you're banging on about..."

I say "what" in the OP and post #15.


Also, I don't see where your two links provide your support for saying that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #20)

Sat Oct 4, 2014, 08:18 PM

21. I'm adding you to my prayer list

Several posts between us & I'm still confused. God bless you.

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Response to question (Reply #21)

Sun Oct 5, 2014, 07:06 AM

22. Questions for question:

question,

re: "I'm adding you to my prayer list Several posts between us & I'm still confused."


Although you didn't address your post to anyone, I think it may be intended for me.

Firstly, is there any particular issue that will be the subject of your prayer? And secondly, what specifically confuses you about what is requested in the OP?

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Response to rstrats (Reply #22)

Tue Nov 11, 2014, 09:56 PM

23. Questions for question:

You have two questions in post #22.

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Response to question (Reply #21)

Wed Dec 3, 2014, 09:30 AM

27. Questions for question.

question,

You still have two questions directed to you in post #22.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #20)

Wed Nov 12, 2014, 11:15 AM

24. Though I don't have any writing......

As idiomatic terms would not be specifically noted as such and recorded for posterity (prior to the computer). The Jewish believers and Jews I have spoken to all said that was a common phrase any part of a day counted as a day. So Jesus was put in the tomb on Friday before sundown- 1 day, was in all Saturday 2nd day, Was resurrected after dawn on Sunday 3rd day.

Also for Israel the day started at evening in honor of Genesis 1 (evening and morning 1st day, 2nd day etc.)

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Response to nolidad (Reply #24)

Fri Nov 14, 2014, 09:11 AM

25. Jewish Idiom?

nolidad,

re: "The Jewish believers and Jews I have spoken to all said that was a common phrase any part of a day counted as a day."



As regards the Jewish practice of counting any part of a day as a whole day I would agree, but when nights is added to days to yield the phrase 'x' days AND/OR 'x' nights, it normally refers to a measurement of a consecutive time period where day refers to the light portion of a 24 hour period and night refers to the dark portion of a 24 hour period. No one In the history of apologetics as far as I know has ever presented any historical documentation that a phrase 'x' days AND/OR 'x' nights was a first century idiom of Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek which could mean something different than what the phrase means in English. However, a number of 6th day crucifixion advocates try to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language. In order to say that it is employing a common idiom, I'd think that there would need to be some examples from the period to substantiate the claim that it was common.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #25)

Tue Nov 18, 2014, 08:42 AM

26. Common Idiom?

Someone new looking in may know of some writing.

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Response to question (Reply #12)

Fri Mar 20, 2015, 10:23 PM

34. Another thing to add to the confusion about "days"

According to the Jewish tradition of the time, a "day" actually began at sundown of the previous day. Not at sunrise, as one might expect, or even at 12:00 midnight, which is the standard used now with clocks and calendars being common things.

The tradition still exists in the form of the Jewish Sabbath, of course. Which begins at sundown on Friday, and ends at sundown on Saturday. And bringing this back to my friend JC's regrettable experience, you might recall that the religious leaders who demanded his crucifixion also insisted that his body (along with the other two who were nailed up with him) be buried before the Sabbath, this being Passover week, so an especially religious time for them.

For my part, I can say that JC arrived here in Hell on Friday and checked out on Sunday morning. I told him he should stick around a while longer, and that he had earned a vacation, but you know..... "Dad's plan" and all ......

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Response to Satan (Reply #34)

Sat Mar 28, 2015, 07:32 AM

35. Satan

re: "...I can say that JC arrived here in Hell on Friday and checked out on Sunday morning."


As a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate, how do you account for the 3rd night of Matthew 12:40?

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Response to rstrats (Reply #35)

Sat Mar 28, 2015, 04:34 PM

36. Matthew was a tax collector

so he probably just rounded up.

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Response to rstrats (Original post)

Thu Dec 25, 2014, 08:44 AM

28. Questions for question ......



You still have two questions directed to you in post #22.

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Response to rstrats (Original post)

Tue Jan 27, 2015, 08:39 AM

29. Matthew 12:40 Using Common Jewish Idiomatic Language?

Since it has again been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in who is a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate, and who thinks that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language may know of some writing.

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Response to rstrats (Original post)

Tue Feb 3, 2015, 11:29 AM

30. Clarification

Perhaps a slight rewording of the OP will make it a little more clear:

Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day of the week crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is a common Jewish idiom for counting any part of a day as a whole day. I wonder if anyone (who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" means the tomb and who tries to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that is is using common Jewish idiomatic language) knows of any writing which shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights being used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specified number of days and at least a part of each one of the specified number of nights?

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Response to rstrats (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 20, 2015, 09:03 AM

31. Matthew 12:40 Using Common Jewish Idiomatic Language?

Someone new looking in may know of some writing.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #31)

Sat Apr 11, 2015, 08:25 PM

37. Examples of Common Usage?

A further rewording of the OP may help:

Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a “discussion” with 6th day of the week crucifixion folks, they frequently argue that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language. I wonder if anyone (who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" means the tomb and who tries to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying that is is using common Jewish idiomatic language) knows of any writing which shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights being used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specified number of days and at least a part of each one of the specified number of nights? There ought to be examples in order to be able to say that it is common.

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Response to rstrats (Original post)

Thu May 21, 2015, 07:36 AM

38. Matthew 12:40

Since it has again been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language may know of some writing.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #38)

Thu Jun 11, 2015, 06:27 AM

39. Common idiom?

Someone new looking in may know of some writing. BTW, Luke 24:21 also indicates that the crucifixion couldn't have occurred any later than the 5th day of the week.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #39)

Sun Jul 5, 2015, 08:23 AM

40. Common idiom?

BTW, Matthew 27:63 and Mark 8:31 say "after three days".

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Response to rstrats (Reply #40)

Thu Sep 10, 2015, 07:04 AM

42. Common idiom?

Perhaps someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" means the tomb and who tries to explain Matthew 12:40 by saying that is using common Jewish idiomatic language will be able to support that assertion with writing which shows a phrase stating a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights being used in the first century or before when it absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specified number of days and at least a part of each one of the specified number of nights.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #42)

Sun Jan 10, 2016, 11:01 AM

43. Is Matthew 12:40 Using Common Idiomatic Language?

With the new year upon us, maybe there will be someone new looking in who knows of examples as requested in the OP and clarified in further posts. And again, remember that the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. As stated, there are other topics that do that. However, there are those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language such as the Messiah saying that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 nights when He knew that it would only be for 2 nights. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #43)

Wed Mar 30, 2016, 06:35 AM

45. Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language?

Since it has again been awhile, perhaps someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who thinks that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language may know of some writing.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #45)

Tue Jul 18, 2017, 06:04 AM

46. Common Figure of Speech?

Someone new looking in may know of examples.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #46)

Tue Jul 25, 2017, 05:15 PM

47. Like a terrier..

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Response to _eek (Reply #47)

Sun Jul 30, 2017, 04:40 PM

48. Like a terrier..

_eek,

Are you a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate?

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Response to rstrats (Reply #48)

Mon Jul 31, 2017, 10:52 AM

49. No.

Not an advocate of any type, but the modern interpretation of the accounts seem to indicate he was crucified on Yom Shishi, the 6th day of the Jewish week, and taken down before Yom Shabbat in keeping with the Jewish traditions concerning the Passover, but that seems contradictory.. Because if Pesah occurs on a Yom Shabbat, then the beginning of the festival is moved back to Yom Shishi, since no work can be done during Shabbat..

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Response to _eek (Reply #49)

Tue Aug 15, 2017, 06:42 AM

50. Topic

_eek,
re: "No."

Then you probably won't know of any examples.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #50)

Thu Nov 23, 2017, 03:43 PM

52. Examples

But perhaps someone new looking in will know of examples.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #52)

Tue Jan 2, 2018, 02:59 PM

53. Further wording

1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth"

2. There are those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

3. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.

4. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.

6. I am simply asking anyone who thinks it was common, to provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred.

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Response to rstrats (Reply #53)

Fri Jun 8, 2018, 12:27 PM

54. Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?

Perhaps someone new looking in may know of examples.

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Response to rstrats (Original post)

Tue Aug 15, 2017, 07:11 AM

51. To me the real question is

Why did jesus say he'd be "in the heart of the earth" for 3 days and 3 nights?
Most people go with the Friday to Sunday thing..
So if he was buried later on Friday and rose Sunday morning.. he only spent 2 nights in the ground, really he was in the ground for a little over a day and half.
Another failed prophecy by the false prophet.
Yes some say the Jewish day starts at sundown the previous day according to how we keep time now, but he certainly wasn't nailed to the cross at night. People were there, saw him, he somehow had conversations with other crucified people that got written down..
None of it makes sense, yet, people believe it.
They have to believe it becsuse as I think Paul said, without the resurrection, there is no christianity. Not exact words, but same effect.

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Response to SlayerNut (Reply #51)

Sun Jul 29, 2018, 01:29 PM

55. Common Figure of Speech/Colloquial Language?


SlayerNut,
re: "To me the real question is..."

That's an issue for a different topic.

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Response to rstrats (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2018, 07:52 AM

56. Common Figure of Speech?

Perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples.

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