Beliefsjohnaddams

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 02:40 PM

President agrees U.S. not a christian nation. Many doubt his christian faith.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen ; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

He later became a Unitarian, and dropped belief in predestination, eternal damnation, the divinity of Christ, and most other Calvinist beliefs of his Puritan ancestors. Adams then studied law in the office of John Putnam, the leading lawyer in Worcester.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Adams

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Reply President agrees U.S. not a christian nation. Many doubt his christian faith. (Original post)
smokingman Feb 2015 OP
Andronikos Feb 2015 #1
smokingman Feb 2015 #3
Andronikos Feb 2015 #7
Letmypeoplevote Feb 2015 #2
Andronikos Feb 2015 #5
nolidad Feb 2015 #16
Andronikos Feb 2015 #18
nolidad Feb 2015 #19
Andronikos Feb 2015 #20
nolidad Feb 2015 #21
nolidad Feb 2015 #22
snooper1 Feb 2015 #26
nolidad Feb 2015 #28
Sardis Mar 2015 #35
Juan Rico Feb 2015 #12
MedusasRage Feb 2015 #4
smokingman Feb 2015 #8
MedusasRage Feb 2015 #23
MedusasRage Feb 2015 #24
smokingman Feb 2015 #25
Banshee 3 Actual Feb 2015 #6
ol geezer Feb 2015 #9
Banshee 3 Actual Feb 2015 #10
Dr. Funkenstein Feb 2015 #30
Muggles Feb 2015 #11
smokingman Feb 2015 #13
Muggles Feb 2015 #14
nolidad Feb 2015 #15
snooper1 Feb 2015 #27
nolidad Feb 2015 #29
snooper1 Mar 2015 #31
nolidad Mar 2015 #32
snooper1 Mar 2015 #33
nolens volens Feb 2015 #17
Junglejim43 Mar 2015 #34

Response to smokingman (Original post)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 02:46 PM

1. Is the U.S. a Christian nation?

 

https://www.au.org/resources/publications/is-america-a-christian-nation


Religious Right groups and their allies insist that the United States was designed to be officially Christian and that our laws should enforce the doctrines of (their version of) Christianity. Is this viewpoint accurate? Is there anything in the Constitution that gives special treatment or preference to Christianity? Did the founders of our government believe this or intend to create a government that gave special recognition to Christianity?

The answer to all of these questions is no. The U.S. Constitution is a wholly secular document. It contains no mention of Christianity or Jesus Christ. In fact, the Constitution refers to religion only twice in the First Amendment, which bars laws "respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," and in Article VI, which prohibits "religious tests" for public office. Both of these provisions are evidence that the country was not founded as officially Christian.

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Response to Andronikos (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 02:51 PM

3. You and John Adams agree then.

Many others do not. I am not one of them.

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Response to smokingman (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 02:58 PM

7. Yes, I do agree with John Adams

 

Thirteen governments thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88)

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Response to smokingman (Original post)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 02:47 PM

2. You are posting facts

Conservatives hate facts.

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Response to Letmypeoplevote (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 02:55 PM

5. And please, conservatives...

 

...nothing by David Barton.

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Response to Andronikos (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 04:07 PM

16. Why?

He is a recognized religious historian and no one has been able to say his research was tainted.

I gave many quoutes below and yes a site from Barton is there as well--too bad.

Your request would be like saying talk about microsoft but don't include Bill gates.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #16)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 04:48 PM

18. Barton is a recognized and ridiculed pseudo-historian.

 

His academic credentials, as cited in Wikipedia:

Barton is a lifelong resident of Aledo, Texas. He graduated from Aledo High School in 1972. He received a Bachelor of Arts degree in religious education from Oral Roberts University in 1976.
After graduating, Barton served as a church youth director. He taught math and science and eventually became principal at Aledo Christian School, a ministry of the charismatic church started by Barton's parents.

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Response to Andronikos (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 04:57 PM

19. Bio

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Response to nolidad (Reply #19)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 05:14 PM

20. LOL...B******t credentials from his own website.

 

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Response to Andronikos (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 05:49 PM

21. Well I can see you

arenj't worth wasting typing time on. You are just too bigoted and prejudiced to engage in real discussion.

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Response to Andronikos (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 06:02 PM

22. Let me be clear on one thing

I do not liker Bartons style of dominion theology and imp[osing a kind of Christian Martial Law on America.

I have not read any of Bartons Books so I can't speak to them, but his quotes from the founders are accurate, no one has accussed him of misquotes- just distorting afterwards their full meaning. I suppose based on the little bit of his theology I would disagree with many of his conclusions as well.

But the founders wewre clear that God was to be the centerpiece of the nation. They hired chaplains, published an American copy of the Bible, paid for religious education in the schools, started congress and SCOTUS in prayer daily.

Many presidents called for days of repentance, fasting and prayer as well as rejoicing in the blessing of God. these are facts that can be culled from many sourcesd outside of Barton.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #19)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 04:36 PM

26. being a fundie qualifies you of nothing but having a lack of logic

More than likely he is probably just a grifter like Palin who could give two shits about a mythical god LOL

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Response to snooper1 (Reply #26)

Sat Feb 21, 2015, 08:38 PM

28. Time will tell who is wise and who is not

Barton is a top notch researcher- just the conclusions he draws are very faulty because of his hold on a variant of the dominion theology heresy.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #28)

Fri Mar 6, 2015, 05:40 PM

35. So even you are cherry picking his conclusions

Because you state he's heretical. Dicey using him as your factual sources says I. Calls into questions all of your conclusions.

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Response to Letmypeoplevote (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 03:29 PM

12. I'm a conservative, and I have in the past used the Treaty of Tripoli to point out that the US is

not a Christian nation when arguing online. Go figure...

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Response to smokingman (Original post)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 02:55 PM

4. So saying the U.S. is not a Christian nation is reason to question someone's faith?

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Response to MedusasRage (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 03:03 PM

8. How many statements that unitarians are not christians would you like me to post.

Or you could read what I posted and look it up for yourself.

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Response to smokingman (Reply #8)


Response to smokingman (Reply #8)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 08:50 AM

24. I understand what you posted and my point has nothing to do with unitarians or even Adams.

It has to do with how ignorant one would have to be to doubt someone's Christianity due to the fact that they reject the idea that the U.S.. is a Christian country.. It's illogical.

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Response to MedusasRage (Reply #24)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 01:59 PM

25. You are trying to connect two unconnected things.

I wrote the headline of the OP to suggest it was about another more recent president. Not to imply that the first thing caused the second.

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Response to smokingman (Original post)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 02:56 PM

6. 1797 so timely to post, Next up British impress American Seaman on the high seas

Will Madison order to take the USS Constitution and sink or take as a Prize, HMS Guerriere?


Stay tuned LW readers

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Response to Banshee 3 Actual (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 03:16 PM

9. You would prefer no one posted anything relating to before Obama was sworn in?

Especially to anything that happened between 2000 and 2008, correct?

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Response to ol geezer (Reply #9)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 03:20 PM

10. I hadnt realized the treaty of tripoli happened between 2001-2008 perfessor, tell us moar...

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Response to ol geezer (Reply #9)

Sat Feb 28, 2015, 01:50 PM

30. yeah

He's a total dubya cheerleader, don't mess with bush or he'll get ya

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Response to smokingman (Original post)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 03:22 PM

11. The Constitution and Bible contradict each other. The Bible is based on the premise that God

makes the rules that should dictate man's behaviour.

The Constitution makes it clear that man must make the laws that apply to man.

The Constitution is secular.

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Response to Muggles (Reply #11)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 03:32 PM

13. The central tenant of right wing christianity is expressly forbidden in the constitution.

See original sin and bills of attainder.

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Response to smokingman (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 04:04 PM

14. Good point.

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Response to smokingman (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 04:05 PM

15. The Central tenet of some right wing Christianity you should say.

America was not founded LEGALLY as a Christian nation of this there is no doubt. But was it understood that the nation was to strive to serve the God of the Bible? The answer to this is unquestionably yes!

When you look back and read in context the arguments for separation of church and state, it was not to keep the govt. secular (which our history has shown it was not until the mid 20th century) what the laws were made for was to keep America from being like European Countries where only one religion was acceptable for public life and that one had to be a member in good standing of that particular sect to be in office etc.

The American experiment was to give all faith freedom to be and even the non Christian faiths were free to live in peace in America without consequence.(though that failed too often.)
http://www.usachristianministries.com/us-history-quotes-about-god-and-the-bible/
http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755
http://christianity.about.com/od/independenceday/a/foundingfathers.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayflower_Compact
http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/documents/1600-1650/the-first-virginia-charter-1606.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Harvard_University
http://www.yale.edu/about/University-Charter.pdf


There are numerous more to see, but you get the idea. Though they did not make it legal they took it for granted that Christianity (in all its sects) would be the religion dominating the new land. One of the founders said (I paraphrase) this constitution is only for a moral and religious people- it is not suitable for others.

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Response to nolidad (Reply #15)

Thu Feb 19, 2015, 04:37 PM

27. you know why jesus can't walk on water anymore?

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Response to snooper1 (Reply #27)

Sun Feb 22, 2015, 05:58 PM

29. He can if He chooses to

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Response to nolidad (Reply #29)

Tue Mar 3, 2015, 03:29 PM

31. not with those holes in his feet now



I crack me up

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Response to snooper1 (Reply #31)

Tue Mar 3, 2015, 09:48 PM

32. I do the same with me!!!!!

But you 'd be amazed what He can do even with holes in His hands and feet! When we stand before HIm He will put a display some will ove and others will be terrified at!

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Response to nolidad (Reply #32)

Wed Mar 4, 2015, 11:20 AM

33. sure...keep waiting for that LOL

he/she/it doesn't exist but the only impressive thing a god could do is the...



Macarena!

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Response to smokingman (Original post)

Wed Feb 18, 2015, 04:27 PM

17. Always liked these

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

I know it will give great offense to the clergy, but the advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace nor forgiveness from them.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Levi Lincoln, 1802. ME 10:305

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.
We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808)

Our Constitution ... has not left the religion of its citizens under the power of its public functionaries, were it possible that any of these should consider a conquest over the conscience of men either attainable or applicable to any desirable purpose.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Reply to New London Methodists, 1809

Cabalistic Christianity, which is Catholic Christianity, and which has prevailed for 1,500 years, has received a mortal wound, of which the monster must finally die. Yet so strong is his constitution, that he may endure for centuries before he expires.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, July 16, 1814

The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes.
-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814

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Response to smokingman (Original post)

Thu Mar 5, 2015, 04:48 PM

34. The constitution was written

almost 250 years closer to the religious wars in Europe and in the Colonies.

Yes, a lot of the people in the 1780's were Christian, more or less. Still, they saw the destruction caused by religious interference in government. As recently as the 1960's Baptists felt they needed the protections afforded by the Constitution. I remember going to Baptist meetings where it was explicitly talked about.

Now that their leaders think they can control the results of abandoning the Constitution's establishment clause, they are against the establishment clause and against the no religious tests clause.

The US allows women to vote, The US allows Blacks to vote. The US allows atheists to vote. The US even allows Catholics to vote. Things change.

The US has become more diverse. We have Sikhs, Hindus, Rastafarians, Muslims, Wiccans, Deism, Mormans, Christian Scientists, Buddhists, Confucianists, Taoists.

If we want to continue the source of the strength of the US we need to let all of them become part of the American society.

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Beliefsjohnaddams